Monday, April 11, 2011

Why Anna Hazare will fail!

Two days ago, lakhs of urban middle class Indians have come onto the streets in a show of support for Anna Hazare’s victory against Government of India when the latter conceded Anna’s demand to form a committee with some civilians in it.  While this outpouring from these yuppie Indians looks good on TV and internet campaigns, I ask myself some basic questions.  Are we really on our way to root out corruption with this show of support and introduction of Lokpal Bill?  Are we about to change the system?  Unfortunately, the answer I get from myself is a big No. 

To give a perspective, imagine a rally or a fast taken up by a Gandhian to stem out casteism from our lives.  We may see a similar response from many Indians who are ‘fed up’ with casteism in this country.  We may naively believe that such rallies and fasts may be the first step towards extirpating casteism from our society.  But the reality is that casteism is so deeply entrenched into our system that a mere fast or rally will not make a dent in its solid structure.   At the most, such rallies and fasts combating such deep-rooted problems will have a symbolic value.  I don’t underestimate such symbols.  I believe they are quite important.  But it would be unrealistic to believe that a single legislation or law will somehow curb casteism from this country.   The same holds true for corruption. 

To all those yuppie Indians who actually believe that this event from Anna Hazare is going to actually bring any change, here is the bad news – nothing is going to change.  I write this not out of cynicism but with a sense of realism to exhort the anti-corruption activists to do much more than what they are currently doing if they are really serious about the cause.  


Corruption in this country is here to stay.  It is not going to go away.  If ever, there is a strong likelihood that it is going to become a permanent and defining feature, an essential ingredient of what it means to be an Indian.  Like those few things that define Indians by becoming their identity, like their preference for curries, obsession with cricket and madness for melodramatic movies, corruption is now an identity of Indians.  The way you cannot take Indianness out of an Indian, you cannot take corruption out of an Indian.   Corruption is his birthright and the Indian will fight tooth-and-nail to hold onto it.  He will not let go of his right to give bribe and take bribe.

Most Indians who are now celebrating Anna Hazare’s fast are being ingenuously optimistic about the change this fast would bring to this country.  They do not understand how and why we Indians are corrupt.  And therefore, their efforts to eradicate it by participating in relay hunger strikes, rallies, or campaigns on the internet, are all bound to produce no tangible results, other than give some gratification to the participants that they made an attempt, though abortive, in correcting the ills of this country.  

Without understanding this disease or malaise called corruption and why Indians practice it, we will not be able to make even the first attempt towards tackling it.  To combat a problem, the first step is recognizing that it is indeed a problem.  Most ordinary Indians other than the yuppie Indians who supported Anna Hazare in his campaign do not believe that corruption is a problem.  They may say so, to you, when you ask them, but when it comes to real issues of living in India, most of them gleefully take bribes or give bribes.  The way they may say that they are against casteism but practice it on a daily basis. 

Most people in India actually like this arrangement of giving and taking bribes.  Contrary to what some yuppie Indians who had jaunts in the West believe, the majority in India find it convenient that bribes can be given and taken on a regular basis. 

Instead of standing in a long line, a bribe-giver feels he is the ‘privileged class’ when he gets to avoid the cumbersome exercise.  In that moment, he is the MLA and the MP combined.  While obtaining a driver’s license, a briber-giver can skip the grueling and painful process with payment of a paltry sum; instantaneously, an ordinary Indian feels like a Rajah, moves up the hierarchy to become upper caste skipping eons of penance, and at least for once, controls his destiny.  It gives instant gratification and a sense achievement like no other.  Either it is the transfer of wife’s job or obtaining a contract, an Indian looks for that government official who takes the bribe.  The minute he finds an officer who takes the bribe, he thanks all the gods in heavens for answering his prayers.

A bribe-taker is an essential god in our pantheon of three million gods.  In fact, he is more supreme than the creator, the destroyer and the preserver.  Millions of people throng to sacred places like Tirupathi to bribe their god in heavens requesting him to grant a bribe-taker here on the earth.  God answers their prayers by providing a bribe-taking-officer, bribe-taking-bureaucrat or a bribe-taking-politician closest to you. 

Indians compete with each other not in terms of what they know, or what they can do, but in terms of who they know and how much they can give.   An Indian who loses out to another bribe-giver does not feel bad that the other person subverted the system, but feels bad that he could not match the bribe-giver’s amount in bribes.  Instead of combating the system he takes a vow to earn more (if needed, by taking bribes from others) so that he can surpass the others in bribe-giving the next time around.  

There was a time when the position of a Vice Chancellor in the universities of India was a respectable one, filled by eminent professors and academicians.  Now it is sold to the guy who can pay 1 Crore.  Even if you are on the top of list of suitable candidates with great accomplishments you still need to cough up this money to secure the position.  If you are one of those guys who haven’t made this kind of money, ‘no problem’, the bureaucrat will tell you, ‘there are many undeserving lecturers and professors out there who will invest in you right now, so that they are assured of their jobs when you become the vice-chancellor’.  

Corruption has skyrocketed in the past twenty years soaring higher and faster than our Sensex.  2G scam, CWG scam, Adarsh scam, and so many others got unearthed only because they were too big that we could not ignore them.  They amount to hundreds of thousands of crores.  But then there are millions of less-than-1000-crores scams which are still hidden from public view.  There is a joke which says that CBI does not take up the case unless the scam involves more than 1000 Crores.  In the last ten years, mining companies have looted India of wealth that may be ten times more than what British took in their two hundred colonial rule.  We are competing with each other on how much we can loot from this country, and the very same people are hailed as leaders and heroes.  Bigger the looter, bigger the hero! And it is the people of India who elect them. 

Most people in India conveniently lay the problem with politicians or bureaucrats.  They think that there is a set of people who can be labeled ‘corrupt’, who conveniently are not their family or their friends, and definitely not themselves, but who can be identified and targeted, and found culpable.  They think that they need to make these ‘corrupt’ people accountable under the laws of the land, punish them if necessary with the strongest of the punishments so as to set example, and thereby eradicate this scourge once and for all.

I find such understanding deeply flawed.  According to me, the problem of corruption in India is not in legislation or with politicians.  The problem is not legal or in penal code.  The problem, according to me, is in Indian Parenting, the way we raise our kids, the way we imbibe values into them on a daily basis. 

We somehow have an ambivalent opinion on how parenting shapes up our culture.  While we believe that it is ONLY because of Indian parenting that we have the ‘greatest culture’ on the planet with ‘greatest moral and family values’, we completely absolve ourselves of parental duties when it comes to shaping the ‘universal’ values, on corruption, on politics, on democracy, on ethics, on responsibility, on duties, and on integrity. 

Because we are not imbibing these universal values into our kids, we are becoming more corrupt each passing day.  Most Indian families have made corruption a part and parcel of Indian identity.  Indians confuse their habits with their values.  They put stress on food habits, like not eating meat, or not drinking alcohol, imbibing the kids with prejudices instead of creating responsible citizens.  They express their bias against other kinds of people, of other caste, of other religion, belittling women, and weak people.  And never ever do they discuss the negatives of corruption, strength of democracy, or need for inclusive growth and equal opportunity.  And the worst part is that they indulge in giving and taking bribes and later justify it as the only way to get ahead in this fiercely competitive world. 

Indian families do not feel bad when they pay bribe.  In fact they feel very proud that they could manage a bribe while others could not.  Fathers feel proud when they go against all odds to secure admission to their son, by providing a very large sum as ‘donation’ to the college.  Husbands feel proud when they secure a job for their wife, by providing a very large sum to the government officer.   When we give bribe and achieve what others could not, we feel proud of our capability.  Without bribe-takers we would have been denied this sense of pride and achievement.  We would not be able to celebrate our Indianness and wallow in its warm glow that rejuvenates us on a daily basis.

Corruption is endemic to Indians, the way casteism is endemic to this subcontinent irrespective of which religion you are born into.  It is not an evil.  It is a way of life.  It is not a sin.  It is a necessity.  It is not a crime.  It is the only way out.  

Few years ago India was reeling under one of the stock market scams.   There was an opinion poll amongst the youth.  More than 80% said that they would also resort to such ‘smart’ tactics to achieve quick ‘success’.  Recently I was talking to young sons of an entrepreneur who has made it big through sheer hard work and perseverance.  These young sons do not have qualms about the state of corruption in India.  They believe that one should do whatever it takes to succeed.  They believe that giving bribes and taking bribes is a part of our life and society, and to stay ahead in the game one has to learn the necessary ‘survival skills’.  They talk about ‘survival of the fittest’ as if they have a doctorate in biology.  To these kids and many others in India, Ramalinga Raju is still a hero.  They argue that people put him behind bars because of pure envy.   Most godmen in India are corrupt and yet they have huge fan following.  Almost every hero in India is eventually found to be corrupt either financially or ethically. 

Even the IT companies in India who believe they have nothing to do with government and hence portray the image of being clean resort to different kinds of deceit and cheating.  They cheat US companies with fake resumes where a one-year experienced guy is positioned as six-years experienced thereby depriving the job to an American in America.  Some of the HR managers in these companies resort to taking money to give you jobs.  Almost all of them keep the government officials ‘happy’ so that they do not bother them. 

As the current event of Anna Hazare’s fast and people’s celebration is unfolding on the national arena, I would like to point out to some news items from the last two days.  One talks about freebies being doled out to voters in Tamil Nadu.  In my region, when a politician comes to the common man asking for his vote, the common man asks him how much he is willing to pay.  When the politician offers him 3000 rupees, the common man asks, ‘what saar! The other party is giving me 4000 rupees.  Give me 5000 rupees’.  The politician who wants to buy his vote pays him 5000 rupees.  Everyone is happy now.  The politician goes home thinking he bought one more vote.  The common man celebrates this unique moment - this is the only time when the bribe-giver has become bribe-taker, when the slave has become the master.  He wouldn’t miss it for the world.  You cannot ask him to forgo this extraordinary moment and opportunity.   The competition in some states is so fierce, that the entire population has to be given bribes to vote- TVs, ceiling fans, homes, free loans, and what not, come to the doorstep.   The common man enjoys these moments and doesn’t care about ethics, morals or issues of integrity that yuppie Indians who are protesting now are trying to promote. 

Another news items talks about 10 or odd students who ‘rigged’ the results to become the toppers in the state of Karnataka.  When I was growing up, we got to know that few students’ parents ‘bought’ the entrance question paper to help their kids get admission into a professional college.  These kids over a period of time disclosed quite proudly that indeed they got the necessary help from their rich parents.  Most other students felt helpless and hoped that their parents were also rich enough to buy them the question paper.  

It is the common man of India, not the politician or the bureaucrat, who indulges in such deceit and corruption to get his way ahead of others. Politician is just a manifestation of what is common to every Indian.  Like man Like State, said Socrates.  The politician or a bureaucrat is just a pimp.  There is a supply and there is demand.  He just happens to be the conduit.   To believe that a politician is the root cause for this problem shows our naiveté. 

Many Indians counter my criticism of Indians.  They ask, ‘aren’t Americans corrupt? Look at the recent Wall Street debacle of 2008? What does that show?’  True, many societies and countries have corrupt people, like in India.  But no other culture or civilization has successfully codified this evil into a value the way Indians have done it.  In India, many people swear by ‘survival of the fittest’ argument to justify ‘getting ahead’ which includes ‘giving bribes’ where necessary.  I think no other culture in the world believes in this misinterpreted Darwinian notion of ‘survival of the fittest’ more than Indians.  Indians use this argument in many instances, and most young people believe that it is a grand principle on which the nature works.  They use this when arguing against reservations-for-lower-castes to perpetuate the hegemony of upper castes, or when arguing against separate state for Telangana to perpetuate the domination of the privileged and majority of Andhras.  Out of this notion of ‘survival of the fittest’ comes a concept called ‘meritocracy’- another misunderstood term amongst a gamut of misunderstood terms.  Indians love to swear by ‘merit’.  And in this world and age, merit also includes the amount of money your father can bribe, or the right kind of contacts that you have.  So, the way a son would proudly show off his Ferrari that his father bought, he would also show off the B.Tech admission that his father bought for him.   An entrepreneur would proudly tell people that he knows this minister and that is considered a qualification.  Even investors are impressed by the fact that this entrepreneur has a secret doorway to a minister and his valuation goes up, and investors love to fund him.  A father buying a B.Tech admission or an entrepreneur having an access to the top minister is now called ‘merit’.

Indians are quite capable of embracing an evil to display it as a proud achievement of our culture.  Seeds of casteism are found everywhere on the planet.  In the course of human history through monarchies and feudalism, some form of ‘casteism’ prevailed in most countries.  But no other country takes the credit for codifying it, legitimizing it, institutionalizing it, making it part of religion, making it a part of the culture and making it a part of identity, the way Indians have done it.  In the same way, I don’t know of a nation that has made corruption a virtue based on ‘survival of the fittest’ arguments, the way Indians have done it. 

To fight that kind of a system which is ingrained into our DNA, we can’t just take up rallies, fasts or internet campaigns, and hope that we got some quick-fix solutions.  No quick revolution will change our culture.  We need to do something very different, very drastic, and unfortunately that means we have to change the way we live our lives.

Since I complain and criticize so much, people ask, so what is the remedy?  What should one do? So, what should these yuppie Indians do, if I believe their rallies and internet campaigns are considered insincere and lazy attempts? 

Indians can work on this in two ways, one that concerns the near term, and the other which concerns the long term.  The near term corrections involve people’s participation, especially of those who are concerned with cleansing the system, in the administration, policy making and politics of India.  You have to correct the system by being a part of it.  This ombudsman they are seeking assumes power without taking up the responsibility of getting the mandate from the common man.  They are taking the shortcut bypassing political route and administrative route.  Unless a certain minimum number of new breed of Indians who believe in ethical practices enter the Indian administration, there can never be a change.  No amount of legislation will help unless people who want the change are part of the administration.  Those who are really concerned but do not wish to enter politics can fund and create legal outfits to fight the cases in courts, spread awareness through TV ads and campaigns, and catch the young students and convert them through programs and shows.

On the long term, Indians need to start working on their parenting, instilling the right values into their kids, not just the habits of not eating meat or not drinking alcohol- and then hope they bear fruits twenty years from now. 

Till then, I don’t see a great hope when it comes to fighting corruption in this country.  And I believe that Anna Hazare is bound to lose the war, though he may win this battle.

96 comments:

  1. Good post.....


    What baffles me more than anything is how children and youngsters are being moulded to adapt to corruption,by their own parents....

    Students feel cheated when they do not get an examination centre,where they could have ended up with more opportunities to cheat.....
    The parents do not want to rely on their children's ability anymore.They just want to finish their 'responsibility' through any available short cut means that are mad available,even to parenting.....

    It is considered a great shame for someone to pass or make use an opportunity to earn more,today.And,this system of ostracising from a group is the threat that no one wants to take......Being a team,or part of a team is more important than the individual today.....

    Scary times ahead for all of us...

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  2. Well said Sujai. I agree with you that the problem is not just with politicians and bureaucrats. Everyone need to do their bit so we may see some change by next generation at least.

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  3. THANK YOU for putting down in such carefully drafted detail, everything I've been trying to explain most of my friends!

    You also make very valid arguments about how we Indians give so much importance to 'exclusivity' - almost didn't think of this one!

    From start to end, I agree with you in toto - this is really a grassroots problem and parenting, good values is exactly the solution. There is no revolution-based panacea to something as deep rooted as corruption.

    May reality dawn faster upon those who do care.

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  4. Indian Religion, along with Indian Parenting is also responsible. Just like I can wash my clothes with Rin or Surf Excel or Tide, similarly I can wash off my sins by visiting Tirupati or going to Kumbh Mela or taking Kailas ManasSarovar Yatra.

    A few examples of corruption:
    1)2 husband-wife IAS were caught in MP last year. They had made 360 crore over 30 years of service.

    Their methodology was simple. The mid-day meal scheme provides for 1 million kids in MP. 75 paise per meal is allocated to sweets. They stole only that 75 paise from each kid.

    75pX 1,000,000= 7.5 lac a day, 2.25 crore a month, 27 crore a year. They got caught because they refused to share the loot, so 30 of their juniors jointly filed a complaint.

    2) My friend's company had shut down in 2002. Suddenly last year he received notice that he had not paid tax for 8 years. When he visited the office, he was told that he has 2 options- either pay a bribe of Rs 2,000 only and take a notice , or go to court(in which case he had to give 1.5 lac to his lawyer).

    He paid the bribe. The officer proudly explained the maths to him. He had painstakingly dug up list of 1000 companies which had shut down and had served notice to each of them. None of them refused a paltry bribe of 2,000.
    So Rs2,000X 1,000= Rs 2,000,000.

    3) If you are honest, you will get frustrated. I know a very honest businessman. He wanted to open 50 schools in villages. But he hasn't been able to open a single one. Because any department he goes, he is asked for a bribe. And he won't pay the bribe

    There is something called EFFICIENCY TAX. To move a file you have to pay a bribe, and your file will get cleared in one day. Lokpal may prevent corruption. But the efficiency will also vanish. The same file which gets cleared in one day with bribe will take one month without bribe.

    @Sujai
    Ramachandra Guha's hypothesis is that worldover first capitalism came, then democracy came. In India, we became a republic in 1950 but economy was liberalised only in 1991. So we are aware of our rights but not our responsibilities.
    Do you agree with Guha?

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  5. On the long term, Indians need to start working on their parenting, instilling the right values into their kids
    Do that Right Now !!!

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  6. Sujai, I do not believe corruption is the most serious problem in India. I know this appears contrary to intution so let me delve deeper.

    Corruption is not a stand-alone phenomenon but is derived from our problems. This results from the ills of our social fabric and socio-political culture. Corruption is therefore a symptom, not a disease (unlike casteism & other "real problems:).

    Much of the corruption in India is both highly visible and petty. This is what makes anti-corruption platfoorm (or movies like Hindustani) so populistic. People often connect the 100/- to the traffic cop to the crores siphoned off in contracts without realizing these are entirely different aspects.

    Finally, do you sometimes wonder at the meaning of the mantras? They are in most cases "samarpayami" and "swaha".

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  7. i agree completely...

    there is this saying in telugu- "if you cant bend a sapling then its tougher to bend a tree when its fully grown"

    but still if we wish to uproot this fully grown tree of corruption...it has to be a more matured and realized effort...just chopping off few branches(like janlokpal bill does) wouldnt do good...we have to uproot it completely...So start from the roots...not from the branches...

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  8. This article reminded me of a scene from board exams in Bihar .. where cheating is considered birth right during exams .. so much so that a Principal from a school had the dare to hit the collector who came in flying squad and questioned about the ongoing cheating.

    Well said..

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  9. Sujai,
    Good article. When the kids are young most parents teach them to pray, "If I pass the exam I will come to Tirupathi and tonsure my head". There itself it starts, if I get a favour, even from God, I will repay. For God it is a special puja and others it is money or in kind!!
    regards,
    ravi

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  10. Hi Sujai,

    My father works in a govt office,I naively joined a private SW company so that i can show off to my parents ,that yupppie Indians are not corrupt and work hard in pvt companies ,Here is what i found in so called hard working software engineers do

    -Openly make false medical bills as if the are AIDS patients, for 15000 RS a year ,There are special rates for different companies available with medical shops for these 'fake bills',The excuse they give is
    'corrupt govt will eat my money'
    Why dont they give this robin hood money to charities ?

    -Claim 36000 individual HRA while they live in own house with parents ,and say 'this limit is claimable'..WTF

    -When our SW engineers go on trips abroad ,they do not exchange the left over money in accordance with FEMA in a reputed bank,they will do this exchange with shady forex companies (This will later go to hawala operators) ,They say thees operators give better exchange and no tax

    -Rampantly pirate movies and games and software as well(irony).

    -Pay real estate brokers by cash and do not pay stamp duties etc properly


    they say we have to pay govt bribes as it is forcing us ,who forced them to claim fake medical bills?who forced them to exchange forex in a shady bank ?

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  11. Hello,
    To tell you the truth, I found the premise of your blog very interesting.. I started reading expecting an opposing school of thought.. But frankly.... midway through your article I lost interest.. I suppose you have a lot to say but you could've used some brevity of thought while expressing yourself.. Perhaps breaking the blog into multiple posts, would also have been a good idea... Think about it..

    Take care... keep writing.... briefly...

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  12. Sujai,

    Admire your effort in putting together such a long post on what is wrong with India/Indians/Indian culture.

    As always, I can't help but wish that some day you start educating yourself more by reading about Indic thought through Indic texts (not Western interpretations of Indic texts or our history).

    Now, what is the connection between knowing the proper history of our people/s, and the current rot of corruption?

    You are a smart man, and I will just give you a few pointers/links below:

    1. Uttaramerur Inscription: http://www.ifih.org/UttaramerurInscription.htm

    2. A blog post by me in 2006: http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2006/05/local-self-government-in-india-and-uk.html

    3. A blog post by Tadepalli - http://kalagooragampa.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post.html

    Tadepalli talks about 'Brahmins' as a caste, but I state that it is a question of 'brahma values' or 'Indic values' that could be found any where among Indians, though as a society we have lost those values along with the loss of self-respect due to various historical reasons.

    4. An interesting take on corruption by Nitin Pai: http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2011/04/11/societies-with-greater-economic-freedom-have-lower-corruption/

    5.Avinaash Sanghi is one of those folks trying to rewrite Indian history based on extensive research of ancient texts and western original sources. A link to one of his blog posts should suffice for now - there are multiple links within each of his posts:

    http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/indic-justice-the-need-to-rediscover-or-reinvent/

    In general, you are reasonably accurate describing the current situation in Indian society - but off the mark in the causation and simplistic in your solutions.

    The corruption in India is not simply because of bad parenting.The reasons are manifold - especially the structural issues in our political economy.I agree that parenting should improve, but what should be done to change the way we govern ourselves?

    More later if things are civil on this site :)

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  13. Sujai,

    you are at your usual-self with statements like "They do not understand how and why we Indians are corrupt...."

    I am not interested in educating you whether you should educate others or not. I would like to add few points.

    Anybody who studied medieval to modern history of India (school curriculum is enough) knows how deep-rooted is corruption in Indian blood and society. Tax evasions, cheating in exams are very trivial examples of it.

    Regardless one accepts them right or wrong, Religion, Cast and Corruption (few more less important items) are part and parcel of Indian tradition for over 5000 years (only 3000 year per Max Muller). English education and adapted democracy and constitution cannot change them easily.

    "change should come from within". India can change only when it understand itself. A century of imposed history and thought has done more harm to Indian society than good.

    Instead of knowing itself India wasted a century copying someone else. Same is continuing.

    You are no different from those Yuppies you talk about. Do not waste your intelligence on analogies but see the root cause of the corruption.

    The Indian is both intelligent and greedy by nature. Only thing that stops him from touching extremes is 'fear of external forces'.

    Now we the modern English educated liberal secular blah blah Yuppies campaign against 'beliefs' in the name of 'rationality'.

    The rational thinking helps people turn thought-to-be-impossible to possible. But same rationality makes evil minds cross the bounds.

    Corruption is only a visible feature of this evil mind.

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  14. my reason why anna hazare will fail
    we live in a multi party system where everything runs on elections,votes and seats.even if a party wants to do something goos, it can do so only if it comes to power.for this it constantly needs to be among the people.organise meetings on various issues of public interests, take up protest demonstrations against the government's failures, etc
    all this in addition to the usual election expenses which include "managing" and "manipluating" voters.
    hence naturally they need huge amounts of wealth.when they come to pwer, the first thing they do is to "recover" what they have spent when they were away from power.
    hence starts corruption and as sujai has said, it percolates rom the top to the bottom most poition.
    i consider "what damage the people have undergone corruption" more crucial than the process of bribery.for example, a pwd official mighthave sanctioned a contract because the other party might have been his friend or because he had recieved kickback.
    the result is the same-substandard contract being carried which results in inconvenience to the public.
    this aspect of "loss/hardship to the society" needs to be made accountable rather than wether the concerned minister/mla had taken a bribe or not
    for example

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  15. Nice post Kumar Narasimha. Thanks for all the links.

    The issue here is that corruption happens because of the various meaningless laws that the country/government has imposed. It gives scope and incentive for corruption. Having less number of laws is the first step towards a more corrupt-less government.

    The more the government wants to shackle its citizens the more ungovernable/corrupt they become.

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  16. Sujai,

    how about Telangana movement? Can we say most are yuppies who do not know what exactly the need for separate state? They come out into street just because some political leader/activist said there was discrimination?

    I mean yuppieism has no bounds.

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  17. Nemo:

    Ramachandra Guha's hypothesis is that worldover first capitalism came, then democracy came. In India, we became a republic in 1950 but economy was liberalised only in 1991. So we are aware of our rights but not our responsibilities.
    Do you agree with Guha?


    I am not sure what Guha said and in what context.

    But I do believe that India ‘inherited’ the institutions of constitutional democracy, adult franchise, judiciary and rule of law from the British and other Western countries without having to actually strive for it. The same is true of many colonial countries. However, India was far more successful compared to other colonial countries in making these institutions a permanent feature. But India has not achieved the same degree of efficacy because its people were not well-versed with tools of democracy, lacking in awareness – unaware of their rights and duties. Only few groups or peoples were trained in negotiating with the democratic institutions during the British rule, and therefore got a head start. Over a period of the gap has widened, and hence the inequities in access to opportunity, empowerment, and representation.

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  18. Anonymous:

    [You can paste the comments related to Telangana Movement in the blogs addressing that issue.]

    You write:

    how about Telangana movement? Can we say most are yuppies who do not know what exactly the need for separate state?

    Here is what I wrote in the previous article – Anna Hazare: Lessons for future. I am just pasting the same here.

    “First, let’s take a look at the people’s participation in the current anti-corruption movement. The media says that it is the ‘power of people’, that it is ‘victory of the people’. Like in Telangana Movement, many urban middle class Indians have come out in throngs walking the roads, participating in the agitations. Usually the urban middle class is apathetic to people’s causes. They do not come out of their comfort zone to participate in people’s movements. They keep their kids indoors cutting them off from the realities of the world, protecting them from the knowledge of the reasons behind social injustices, the realities of discrimination towards lower classes, or tales of subjugation of weaker people by the powerful. Telangana Movement might be one of the first movement in the recent history where urban middle class comprising artists, intellectuals, authors, editors, scientists, lawyers, bureaucrats, politicians, social activists, doctors, bankers, teachers, professors, engineers, IT professionals, etc, have participated in agitations along with farmers, workers, rickshaw pullers, masons, pachayat leaders, potters, sweepers, cobblers, grocers, milkmen, weavers, etc, to fight for a common cause. And yet, no change has taken place. Telangana remains under subjugation even after intensive agitations spanning nearly 10 years. The yuppie Indians should ask themselves some serious questions as to why there is almost no participation from the masses of India in their fight against corruption and why it is limited to cities comprising urban middle class. Unless the anti-corruption movement becomes a grass root movement where ordinary people are involved, you will never have the political influence and without political influence nothing will ever happen in this country. The bill will fail to pass in the Parliament.”

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  19. Something is going to change, though not everything. Jan Lokpal is necessary while its not sufficient. You are a person who believe that just making a separate state for Telangana will do the trick but not that Jan Lokpal is a start to eradicate corruption. You make me laugh.

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  20. @ the author of the article and all the commentators,

    Jan Lokpal is need of the hour. No one denies the fact that change has to come from an individual level to eradicate corruption, but let me tell you you cant just finish a 1000 mt. running race in one jump.

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  21. @ Sujai, for [Unless the anti-corruption movement becomes a grass root movement where ordinary people are involved, you will never have the political influence and without political influence nothing will ever happen in this country. The bill will fail to pass in the Parliament.”]

    So you mean urban youth is not ordinary ? And let me tell you, the common men not just for cities, but also from towns participated in this anti corruption fight. And why are you to tell in advance that the bill will fail to pass ? An astrologer ?

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  22. Too much rant but little substance. You made lot of blanket statements which sound true but none are supported by any facts or reasoning.

    It is senseless to say that people pay bribes here and feel privileged. Firstly no one will enjoy giving a bribe. One gives bribe to make things easier, not to get a kick out of it. Someone jumps a line by giving a bribe is only to get things done faster not to get that kick. The problem here is about the line and the waiting period. Everyone likes to get the things done quicker .Suppose there is an website for the same process, then one would choose it rather than standing in a line just for getting the high of giving a bribe. See what happened to railway reservation counters, telephone bills, etc
    Don’t assume that just because you get a kick out of giving a bribe everyone else is also like that. No one feels bad just because he couldn’t match someone else’s bribe amount. He feels happy that he got away with paying lesser amount. Father feels happy that his son got a seat, not that he gave a donation. He would be much happier if the son got a rank and got a seat by merit. Everyone wants to get these simple things in life. When judged by the parameters of the time and effort saved vs the bribe amount vs the financial capability we, the common man pay the bribe. If there is an alternative to get the task done efficiently without paying the bribe then we surely will pursue it rather than giving the bribe just for the kick of it.
    I pay my electricity bill online saving lot of time and effort I spend in the queue. If the online transaction charges me 10/- per transaction I will do it because I can afford it. But if I miss the payment and the lineman comes to disconnect the power then I will bribe him 100/- to avoid the inconvenience. Here all my moral values and brought up go out of window as the other alternative of going the right way is to go to the eseva and pay the bill to get the receipt. Then go to the electricity office and submit the payment receipt and only after that the power comes, that too only on the next day when the lineman comes again to reconnect the power. I won’t consciously miss paying the bill just to get the thrill of bribing 100/- to the lineman.
    All I want to prove that if the governance is right the common man won’t have to pay the bribe. If you can provide me with any such logical example to prove the kick you get out of paying bribe then your argument will have some justice.
    Coming to your scepticism of the ombudsman bill you can only do a google to know how it was implemented successfully in many parts of the world. We are already delayed in getting it till now. The reason is not because it’s in our DNA as you are thinking. If you talk about our DNA and culture then you can check out Chanakya’s Arthasastra, Manusmriti, etc..even the panchatantra taught during childhood teaches high moral values. When the rest of the world is living in jungles religion was established and philosophy took root here. A lot of our thinking and idealogy got lost in the recent changing times after we got exposed to the western thoughts and to the successful efforts of people like Max Muller to show us in inferior light when compared to western thinking. So don’t rant too much about the past and the religions to prove your points. Just sticking to the present will do.

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  23. Cont -

    The corruption here now became systemic. After decades of staying corrupt it became self-sustaining. The corrupt people do the scams because the system allows it or is helpless to prevent it and People get conditioned in due course of time and everyone came to accept it as way of life instead of questioning it. That is as long as it isn’t explosive enough or didn’t hamper the day to day life. Sometime earlier the congress got defeated due bofors controversy. But things remained same because the system isn’t reformed to prevent this from happening again. Now the government crossed the threshold of corruption. The amount is comparable to the GDP of whole nation and it touched a raw nerve of the common man. For 4 decades the lokpal bill was delayed and now everyone wants it yesterday.
    Also it need not wait for the next generation of Indians in the administration to correct the system. It can start now. A strong bill like lokpal addresses these problems in a multi-pronged manner. Independence to the investigating agencies will be the first step by taking away the protection of the govt from the babus and ministers. Raja from 2G scam can now come out after his jail term (if any) and still enjoy his loot. Ombudsman bill dictates that the loss suffered by the exchequer should be taken from the culprit. Over this there is a stringent punishment of minimum 5 years. So a proactive investigating agency with the money taken out of equation and a severe punishment should act as sufficient deterrent to corruption. Couple it with the rapid digitisation of our payment systems along with modernisation in power and piped LPG distribution. Add the UID project to bypass the middlemen and I have a strong argument to show that we are going to be much much better after 5 years of time than the past few decades.
    But there is a glitch here. The corruption or any malpractice will sustain as long as it stays out of media or public attention. A strong media presence with sting operations and constant spotlight on these issues will ensure that the govt behaves well in enacting the laws on time and people will get outraged if it doesn’t. Once the people get diverted on other topics then govt will go back to its own ways. It’s like the religion. There should be a threat of bad things happening if you commit sin. That will help in putting up good behaviour. Likewise if the punishment is assured for committing a crime then it will act as a good deterrent. Just hope that the bills aren’t drafted weak and passed without problems. I am not saying that it will be a one stop solution for all things. Our people are intelligent to look for other ways of committing crimes but the governance should be corrected first to enact laws to prevent the wrong things from happening again and again (like what US did after 2008 fiasco). After that as you said the battle is won but the war is still on.
    Parenting also can do with some improvement. I remember reading a story in my childhood in which the wise king on deathbed gives a folded paper to his son to be opened only in times of crisis. The son opens it when the whole kingdom is in disarray. It’s written there that when there is corruption and chaos in the kingdom the duty is not to build more jails and implement cruel punishments but to undergo reforms to make people educated and happy. How true it is seeing the current situation, be it the scams or the maoist movements. By telling a childhood parable I want to emphasize that we have no scarcity of wisdom and how it’s passed by these anecdotes by parents and books. Only we have to see that this kind of knowledge is properly passed on.

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  24. Cont-
    Kumar Narasimha in the above post said it all it in his last few paras of what I told in so many words; both about your writing and the content. I have a suggestion. Just avoid blanket statements without providing any proof. Also I could skip whole paragraphs without missing anything. It’s all unsupported rant.
    For any topic there can be both positive and negative arguments. Bhagavad Gita says not to use your intellect to confuse the uneducated. All it means is to use the intellect to discern the good and bad and give a sensible view. You need not be religious to follow the wisdom of the epics, be it Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita or Bible. Of course it’s your blog and you are entitled to free speech. You have good intellect to do some thinking but if you want to put forth your point then you need to do lot more and provide a sensible argument. Otherwise it would be the first and last visit for me and many others. I must be having too much free time today to write this big reply. Sorry for consuming your time.

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  25. I have a different take on why corruption is rampant in India. We have democracy in name but there are no checks and balances in our system.

    1. Weak institutions - If some one like TN Seshan takes charge of CEC, he imposes code of conduct and enforces the laws in the books, it works for a while. When he retires, our executive ensures that they nominate a shady, weak and corrupt person who will protect the ruling class. It is what happened after TN Seshan.

    2. Separation of powers - Legislature, Executive and Judiciary. For us it is all in one. That is the curse of Parliamentary system. But most of Parliamentary systems don't fail like ours because those systems don't depend on one dynasty or one person to control the destiny of the party unlike ours. We need a real separation of powers: Legislature which is not part of executive. That means, elected representatives can 't be part of executive. We elect executive and Legislature separately which provide checks and balances against each other. Same with judiciary or Law/Order machinery. Lets say elect local judges, prosecutors and IG, DSP or even local town inspectors. They are not transferred and are forced to be accountable every 5 years.

    3. Centralization - We centralize every thing. Gandhi family nominates Congress candidates for MP/MLA. BJP central committee nominates candidates for MP/MLAs. Communist central politburo nominates MP/MLA for their party. Imagine the abuse of power and how useless people get nominated as legislators and then as ministers. Let us have a Primary system where local constituents of BJP or Congress or TDP or CPM elect one candidate among 10 candidates of their party. That candidate will run for that party. No party can nominate a member. Instead, party members (every voter can register for one and only one party or independent can vote for one party) elect one candidate. The elected candidates from each party will run for a general election and people will elect one among them. Similarly, we elect CM from among 10 different elected party candidates instead of nominated candidates. It is like a Presidential form but with our own customizations. We can allow only candidates from a party with at least 10% votes. We can have Nepotism law which CM/PM can't nominate his relatives as ministers. We can introduce term limits.

    Overall, this will decentralize the power and increase the accountability.

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  26. Vintage Sujai! I agree with most of what you said.
    Lok Pal probably will be a useful institution, but assuming it will be panacea for all our ills is foolishness. Ultimately, it still has to bank on same corrupt Govt machinery for enforcement.

    Another area corruption can be reduced is by reducing the size of Government. We dont need Govt providing rice, food, houses, mid day meals and assorted freebies like TVs, fans etc. They do this with tax payers money and make common man servile and dependent on govt for everything. Only a small percentage of our tax money trickles down to the needy but most of it is eaten by our corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy & politicians.

    Just give away cash (some thing like what TDP proposed during last elections) to the identified people and bypass our corrupt bureaucracy.

    If you cant cut corruption, cut the Government.

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  27. @Hemanth

    "Chanakya’s Arthasastra, Manusmriti, etc..even the panchatantra taught during childhood teaches high moral values. "

    Once a Patna Univ professor visited Netherlands. In a restuarant he ordered for a glass of pure milk. A minute later the manager came running. He apologised and said they knew toned milk, double toned milk, soy milk, but they didn't know "pure milk". When the professor explained that "pure milk"= milk- water, the manager was shocked that India is a country where milk is adulterated( this occured in 60's)

    The point is, you have knowledge of purity only when you have experience of impurity.

    Similarly, lessons in morality is required only where immorality is present.

    That we were composing Arthashastra, Manusmriti( BTW, it is probably one of the origins of casteism, and claims that women are properties of men), and teaching Panchatantra to kids simply proves that Indian society was already corrupt.

    But you, Kumar Narasimha etc. continue to sing lullabies of our "glorious past".

    Jai Ho!

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  28. More reading material:)

    1. I am half-way through a book called 'Breaking India' by Rajiv Malhotra and Aravindan Nilakandan.

    I strongly recommend it for any one interested in learning about what exactly happened during colonial times, and what is happening now a days with respect to discourse/s about India.

    Here are six provocations from the book (an Exec summary of sorts):

    http://www.breakingindia.com/?page=sixProvocations

    2.I am hoping that at least some of you, especially you Sujai, heard about or read Dharam Pal.Never heard of him? Never mind. Here's a link to one of his books:

    http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/beautifultree.pdf

    I know reading 436 pages is a tough ask. Here, please read the review, and don't forget to note the caste-wise breakup of students attending Indian schools in the madras Presidency during the 1820s:

    http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Indigeneous-Education-in-the-18th-century-1.aspx

    3.I am sure, those of you who are open minded about these issues would now be intrigued. I encourage you to download and read all of Dharam Pal's writings:

    http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/

    The point I am trying to make: It is obvious we, as a civilisation, have come crashing down from our lofty heights earlier.It is incumbent upon our generation and the next two generations to rediscover the genius and the values, and re-order our society accordingly so that not only Indians benefit, but the entire world can partake the fruits of India's civilisational contributions.

    Of course, one could just shrug away and say they don't consider themselves as Indians, but as global citizens.Fine..then why have this racial shame?

    Where does Anna Hazare fit into all these things? I think the agitation we have seen last week goes to show that some where the middle class India has started awakening.It is just a small ripple, and the long slumber still rules.But irrespective of what Anna Hazare achieves or does not, the Indian collective consciousness is one step closer to realising who we are, and what we need to do.By this trial and error method, even if it takes a longer time, eventually the Indian spirit shall rise again.

    The start needs to happen in education, and if we agree that education begins at home, then yes, at the level of parenting. But the young parents of today, and those who will become parents in the next 5-10 years, what of them? How do we educate them about our real history, and the 'Bharata Dharma', and its unique ways of conflict resolution and its science-based, pluralistic, eco-friendly life style?

    End of my monologue. Thanks for being patient with an idealist.

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  29. @United Indian:

    Let me tell you about Manu Smriti. In Indian canon, we have Sruti (that which is heard/spoken/) and Smriti (that which is described/remembered).

    Jurisprudence was handled mostly at Panchayat and city levels, and very rarely matters used to reach the King's level.

    And so, there were many Smritis composed over thousands of years - describing the systems in place applicable to a geographical area and time. Note that these were descriptive and not prescriptive, that is, they did not lay down what should be implemented, but described the practices and understanding. Yagnavalkya Smriti was prevalent mostly South of Vindhyas, and Manu Smriti was more towards today's North India and Bengal.

    When British colonial servants needed to do tax collection and salary payments, they realised that they then have to handle jurisprudence as well.They also had a political and evangelical need to classify and stratify the Indian communities.As they started looking for any Indian texts to give them high level guidance, some enterprising Bengali scholars dredged up the Manu Smriti as one of the historical sources that would help the British and German Indologists to understand our systems/culture better.

    That is how we have ended up with Manu Smriti as the be all and end all about caste in India- which is wrong. But it did not stop the Europeans from making the book the most definitive one, and our state-sponsored historians basically saw no need to change things. If some one today says Manu Smriti has been misinterpreted or misunderstood, they will get labelled as the Hindu Right or as casteist. That is the sorry state we are in as a nation/culture.Is there any wonder our intellectual degradation and racial shame are reflected in the civic corruption we condone and encourage indirectly?

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  30. @United Indian

    I quoted Arthasastra and Manusmriti to put forth my point against the blanket statement about our DNA. We have a glorious past in which the intellect flourished. I wanted to give the example of the works which established detailed levels of governance suitable to those times. Be it arthasastra, manusmriti, vidura neeti,etc these all are unparalleled masterpieces worth studying. I once listened to a speech by a Rtd supreme court judge on the laws and he praised sukra neeti for its approach on the law making. People like them are competent authorities to comment on these things..not you and me. The present level of thinking is more western influenced and making unsubstantiated statements about manusmriti,etc without really giving proper reasoning behind that is unwarranted.

    Coming to Manusmriti let me explain why the casteism ensured that longevity of our culture and tradition.

    Purusha suktam tells the following
    brāhmanō asya mukhamāsīt | bāhū rājanya: krta: |
    ūru tadasya yad vaiśya | padbhyām śūdrō ajāyata
    meaning 'The Brahmin was the mouth and Rajanya, the warrior-princes were both arms, His thighs became Vaisya and His feet became Sudra.'

    Immediately you can come up with the statement of casteism on how sudras are compared to the feet. But you should think that the same vedam told god is shapeless. Here the intellectuals are considered brahmins, the protectors are kshatriyas..etc.
    Manusmriti tells to give respect to a brahmin but if the brahmin isn't following his rituals then he is equal to an animal. The same vedam also says 'janmana jayate sudraha..samskarad dwija uchyate' essentially saying everyone is same by birth and only by his practise he will attain the caste.

    Manusmriti essentially categorized everyone by the profession they do and ensure that it is carried forward by the progeny. It didn't prohibit anyone from other castes from pursing the duties of another caste. Sage vasistha is the son of a prostitue, matanga is another sage from lower caste..there are many other examples like this.Don't blame the scriptures, blame the persons who failed to implement them in spirit.

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  31. -cont
    The caste system is to identify the work done by that person and establishing a caste system will ensure that the progeny will continue the family tradition for balance in society.In fact this trend alone helped preserve the vedic knowledge. The vedam now recited is the same as it was recited few thousands of years ago.No other knowledge is passed intact like this just by oral recitation.

    My grandmom once told me that in the village except for barber's wife everyone else's wife has to participate in the household work. Potter's wife will press mud, brahmin's wife will arrange the things for puja, etc..So intercaste marriage will severely disrupt the functioning of the household and in time affects the entire society.

    You gave a statement as though you are not following the caste.Now a days everyone follows the casteism, in a different manner. When picking the girl for a life partner we look for similar educational background or work background. We fall in love with another girl either at college or work and we normally choose the one compatiable with our mindset. Here also we are following the age old caste system in spirit looking for similar education or work background.Lets call it neo-casteism. People working in MNC just don't go looking for girls in daily labourer families.Everyone wants the spouse to be from similar mindset which again comes from the education and family brough up. We just ditched the old caste system and employed this neo-caste system.Its all designed ensure a compatiable life both in family and society. Every religion or a practise is founded on sound principles, its only the implementation of the idealogy got lost in due course of time.In the current society we are not following family traditions so the need to look for the spouse in similar caste is no longer valid.Changing times changing practices, But in spirit everything remained the same.

    For better understanding on manusmriti check the below links.
    http://www.satyavidya.org/frauds-and-myths/history-and-culture/166-manu-smriti-and-sudras
    http://www.satyavidya.org/frauds-and-myths/history-and-culture/167-manu-smriti-on-womanhood

    Having said that the sorry state of current situation is brought upon us by ourselves. Leave the past few decades of history and in the current internet age we have to start rethinking and rediscover ourselves.

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  32. Sujai, I read last two paraggraphs. I dont think I shld read other stuff. As usual you missed the point. No one saying corruption will end in one night. But the way Hajare got response shows people don't want corruption. So he has already succeeded.

    Point is he has tried. No matter what happens, he has tried and his success lies in that.

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  33. Just avoid blanket statements without providing any proof
    This is where Sujai irritates other commentors. His statements sound 'authoritative' whereas he demands proof for everything others say.

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  34. Well written ...

    I was trying to tell the same to my friends.
    Perhaps,Lokpal bill is necessary, but i could find the selfish nature of us Indians coming out in light.Lots of ppl asked me how is it selfish if we fight for Country ?

    What ppl seem to be missing is that they are fighting for themselves and NOT for the country per se.How many times did the entire country stand for the problem of some state ?How many ppl even know the name of Sharmila "the iron lady" who is also fighting for a purpose ?

    The first step for change is avoid hypocrisy and double standards.

    I am flabbergasted by the support for the lokpal bill.The reason being the extent of foolishness of all my friends who are bugging my life through facebook, official Ids and gmails without even knowing the head or tail of the bill.

    But not too many know the power of Lokpal bill.If it goes fine,it is going to be beneficial.Ideally, ppl forgot that the current system is supposed to do all of that but failed.Whats the guarantee that ppl who head lokpal bill will not get corrupt ?After all, they are also Indians.

    My only sincere request to ppl is to follow things that they are supposed to follow before they start supporting such bills.The change we want to see should happen in our mentalities not in the system.

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  35. @Hemanth

    "So intercaste marriage will severely disrupt the functioning of the household and in time affects the entire society."

    Have you ever considered the fact that Hinduism is anti-Indian constitution? Casteism, one of the pillars of Hinduism discriminates people, and our constitution says none should be discriminated!

    Also, you are always talking about our past. What about our future? Can there be unity among Indians if casteism is present, even though it preserves our "glorious” tradition and culture and Vedas. Today young-urban-educated-middle class claims, Chak De and RDB style, "We have only one identity- we are Indians". But we all know how the society will treat a marriage between a Brahmin girl and a dalit boy.

    Unless India is united, caste-politics will dominate, and so will corruption. Backward caste politician will get elected, gleefully loot India, knowing perfectly well that the sidelined backward castes will re-elect them. I am not saying that all backward-caste politicians are corrupt, neither are all upper caste politicians honest. But caste acts as almost invincible shield. Have you noticed that Raja played the "I am a dalit hence victimised"card. He is a small fry hence has become the fall guy. Big fish like Mayavati will always get away- she knows that no one can take "panga" with the huge masses she represents. Similarly Yeddyurappa survived because he has the Lingayats in his pocket.

    My fear is, corruption is only the symptom of one of the myriad diseases of India, most ancient and dangerous of which is casteism. People like you are not even willing to accept casteism as a curse. And as long as there is caste-based discrimination, none of Sujai's long-term or short-term solutions will work.

    Some people have found, probably one of the ancestors of Michelle Obama was a slave. In USA, I may be a slave, but my great-grand daughter can become the first lady of USA (and who knows, may be the president of USA someday). This is what makes USA great. But in India, the land of Brahminical snobbery, if I am a dalit, then all my descendants are cursed.

    Ancient Indian culture was glorious only for upper-caste hindus. The SC, ST, OBC may politely beg to differ.

    (BTW today is the birthday of Dr Ambedkar,M.A.,PH.D.,D.Sc.,LL.D.,D.LITT.,BARRISTER-AT-LAW, who was not allowed to enter library, sit on benches, drink water, and of course, read our "glorious" Sanskrit scriptures.)

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  36. UnitedIndian

    I agree with you....you have summed it up.

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  37. You surely seem to have a knack of taking the statements entirely out of context be it manusmriti in the first post and casteism in my second.You took just one single statement and extrapolated to show a completely negative view.

    My statement about casteism which you have given is mentioned to establish my point that it helped carry our culture and tradition to survive these many thousands years. The village life...thousands of years. To prove this I can show the differences in traditions in north and south india even though they follow the same religious practices. South India didn't get exposed to other cultures and so held on to their traditions.

    I thought I clarified my view with this stmt 'In the current society we are not following family traditions so the need to look for the spouse in similar caste is no longer valid'. You should have noticed this sentence.
    Maybe I was not clear enough. Mea culpa.I intended that the caste system that existed before is completely invalid in the current generation but we are still following it in spirit.

    Also I stand by my idea about how caste system preserved our society.Whatever the British colonised they successfully converted whole countries to christianism but failed in India even after persistent
    efforts of people like Maxmuller and other 'scholars' who tried to undermine our idealogies.They succeeded partially.The Aryan invasion theory we study in school is one theory propagated to establish western thought superiority.We succeeded in repelling the efforts because we already have a strong cultural identity.That is because people practiced family professions and carried on the work and practices of the fathers and forefathers.All this situation precedes the Independent India and the British Raj and I also meant it when I said these caste practices are invalid in these times.

    In Macaulay's words 'It is my firm belief that, if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respectable classes in Bengal thirty years hence'.A little bit about Max Muller :
    http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/35_max_muller.htm
    Seeing your fascination towards west and disdain for India I think they might have succeeded partially.

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  38. @UnitedIndian
    You surely seem to have a knack of taking the statements entirely out of context be it manusmriti in the first post and casteism in my second.You took just one single statement and extrapolated to show a completely negative view.

    My statement about casteism which you have given is mentioned to establish my point that it helped carry our culture and tradition to survive these many thousands years. The village life...thousands of years. To prove this I can show the differences in traditions in north and south india even though they follow the same religious practices. South India didn't get exposed to other cultures and so held on to their traditions.

    I thought I clarified my view with this stmt 'In the current society we are not following family traditions so the need to look for the spouse in similar caste is no longer valid'. You should have noticed this sentence.
    Maybe I was not clear enough. Mea culpa.I intended that the caste system that existed before is completely invalid in the current generation but we are still following it in spirit.

    Also I stand by my idea about how caste system preserved our society.Whatever the British colonised they successfully converted whole countries to christianism but failed in India even after persistent
    efforts of people like Maxmuller and other 'scholars' who tried to undermine our idealogies.They succeeded partially.The Aryan invasion theory we study in school is one theory propagated to establish western thought superiority.We succeeded in repelling the efforts because we already have a strong cultural identity.That is because people practiced family professions and carried on the work and practices of the fathers and forefathers.All this situation precedes the Independent India and the British Raj and I also meant it when I said these caste practices are invalid in these times.

    In Macaulay's words 'It is my firm belief that, if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respectable classes in Bengal thirty years hence'.A little bit about Max Muller :
    http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/35_max_muller.htm
    Seeing your fascination towards west and disdain for India I think they might have succeeded partially.

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  39. -cont
    Our main topic is about corruption.There is an excellent article today in Business standard.Check it here.
    http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/kanika-datta-corruption-take-two/432085/
    Two paragraphs stand out in the whole article.They are as follows.

    'People in western democracies or even south-east Asian countries are not, as many Indians enviously think, intrinsically more honest than Indians. They are less inclined to be dishonest because public policies have been shaped in such a way that they have less incentive to be so; rules are enforced, access to resources is relatively easy and contracts are honoured.'

    'But the issue then as now is that corruption is almost inevitable whenever access to resources and materials is left to the discretionary power of a few individuals, whether it is a minister, bureaucrat or an executive in a private corporation.'

    Both are completely true if you understand the logic behind them.You definitely are comparing apples to oranges and a wide variety of fruits when you are getting caste politics into the discussion of corruption. Raja was able to involve in corruption because of the discretionary powers he enjoyed while taking the decisions-not because he is a dalit. This is a governance issue not a caste issue.The reason he brought the caste into picture is because the existing system is made like that by the vote bank politicians.

    Since you idolise Ambedkar and despise the upper castes, what if I say Ambedkar is the root cause of all this evil.Had he not introduced the Reservation system everyone would be well off today without discrimination just like the constitution says-that everyone is equal before law.Just by introduction of reservation system the caste came into picture, otherwise everyone would be getting equal opportunities and equal treatment in entire country in every aspect of life.What if the brahminical snobbery made people like Tanguturi Prakasam the Andhra kesari give away all his wealth to freedom struggle and died a poor man where as a Dalit like Raja looted like never before.

    In this point my argument is as flawed as yours.The ideology with which Ambedkar introduced the reservation system is different. Power hungry politicians misused that and perpetuated this caste politics to gain votes. Same is the case in ancient times when upper castes misused the ideologies to continue their hold on power. Blame the imperfect humans, not the ideology.

    ReplyDelete
  40. -cont

    For all your American fascination you should read the American history.Since you are a movie buff I hope you saw the movie 'My name is Khan'. You can check the below links.
    http://articles.cnn.com/2006-12-12/us/racism.poll_1_whites-blacks-racism?_s=PM:US
    and this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States
    That's just to give you some idea on the situation in such a friendly society.

    If you are fascinated just because of good roads and tall buildings then check this link.
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/
    India did well during the financial crunch of 2008 because of its excellent banking sector regulation. And also India is projected to become the largest economy by 2050. Check the below link for the much acclaimed and thoroughly researched book of Raghav Bahl.
    http://superpower.in.com/
    If you are fascinated by the american education standards then you can check the below link
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXoJB2KniEA&feature=related

    Also you shouldn't be blind to the happenings around you.When you are dreaming about Michelle Obama you should have observed that US didn't have a woman president..yet. India now have a woman president.It already had a woman Prime Minister who just blew the westerners with her intellect and awareness of world affairs(They had a notion that she is a typical demure Indian girl brought up by a doting father).If you observe we already had a muslim president,Kalam and the whole country is proud of him. In fact Kalam a muslim, Vajpayee a staunch Hindu and Fernandes a Christian held three important roles at a time.No other country is as diverse as this.

    ReplyDelete
  41. -cont
    If my daughter or grand daughter is raised in USA then there is a possibility that she will die in a school shooting incident.If not she grows up on britney spears or Timberlake and probably loses her virginity in high school itself. After boozing and drugs in the college she might get pregnant in the teens. She will grow up too obsessed about celebrities and because the education standards are not techinal on par with Indians or Chinese, she will lose her job to outsourcing.In any case because of the brought up there she will have this myopic view of the rest of the world(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc125/Starnutspics/GDP/the-world-according-to-americans.jpg). Since India is already witnessing a reverse brain drain she will try to come back to India(http://ibnlive.in.com/news/global-trends-show-reverse-brain-drain-study/149120-3.html).
    If she still manage to stay there then by middle age she could already be a twice or thrice divorced lady(http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm)..Even then she cant expect her kids to look after her and had to live a lonely life in the old age when she needs the care most. I don't want my child to become a president of America. I will be complacent if he/she settles well in life,becomes a good family person to take good care of children and a good citizen. If he/she has the caliber to become a president then so be it. (I gave an example on my child as its not polite to talk about your child and it doesn't matter whose child,I just want to establish a fact about the average American life based on the statistical evidences.)

    America has the most number of lawyers in the world(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_country_in_the_world_has_most_lawyers_per_capita).India has close to 1mil for its whole population. Imagine the number of disputes for this 10% of world population which needs 50% of world's lawyers.

    And is this still the great America whose president did drugs in his younger years (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/politics/09obama.html?_r=1). That cant be a good precedent to show for the citizens. Atleast no one dared to question Manmohan's integrity even in middle of all those scams here.His resume can be found by googling.He is the most learned PM in entire world.

    I also mentioned this sentence 'Leave the past few decades of history and in the current internet age we have to start rethinking and rediscover ourselves.' My intention is that the past few decades don't exactly resemble the true Indian spirit and we should start the rediscovery.Please don't take a single sentence and blow it out of context but see the argument as a whole.Its tantamount to the same thing happened to Anna Hazare when the other activists blamed him for supporting Modi when in fact he supported the development of Gujarat.I don't want you to again check for what the activists really told and what Anna really told. I just wanted to establish a point by giving an example.Just don't be prejudiced.

    ReplyDelete
  42. @Hemanth

    "This is a governance issue not a caste issue"

    That's where I disagree. Today's govts are decided by caste. If Mayavati was a Brahmin, do you think she would have dared to build her statues?

    The upper castes are always criticizing Macaulay, one of the reason being introduction of english destroyed brahminical superiority. But without making English compulsory, the backward castes can never be uplifted. Without english would there be any Ambedkar?

    Unofficially, today our natioanl language is English, not Hindi, not Sanskrit(which was only the language of the Brahmins). When Manmohan Singh, Pranab Mukherjee, A K Anthony and Chidambaram discuss - which language do you think they use? Which language is used in most of the debates in parliament?

    The reasons I am discussing removal of casteism, making english compulsory etc. is that only when India is developed will corruption fall.

    -----ON COMPULSORY ENGLISH-----

    Please read

    http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-interview-a-temple-to-english-in-india/20101103.htm

    "Prasad, a Dalit thinker, celebrates Thomas Macaulay's birthday every year and was in the process of building a temple to Goddess English in a village in Uttar Pradesh...people may think his belief in English is bizarre and snigger at him, but the same people move heaven and earth to ensure their children go to the best English schools...Prasad ... is persistent in the belief that by revering Goddess English, uneducated Dalit mothers will make sure that their children learn English...Is there any decent job in this country that can be done without the knowledge of English? ...English speaking nations win more Nobels than non-English speaking countries. ...Germany, France and Britain have the same race, climate, food habits, dress -- culturally they are the same. But Britons have won more Nobels than France and Germany together. Why?..."

    -----ON "MERA BHARAT MAHAAN"-----

    " In fact Kalam a muslim, Vajpayee a staunch Hindu "
    That didn't prevent massacre of muslims in Gujrat.

    "He is the most learned PM in entire world"
    All his education couldn't prevent corruption and inflation

    What is the education qualification of Dhirubhai Ambani? Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Indira Gandhi? Akbar was illiterate. What has education got to do with leadership?

    -----ON USA-----

    If a country which was formed barely 200 years ago(USA got independence in 1776) without any so called rich heritage, culture and tradition and even then if it can surpass civilizations formed thousands of years ago by leaps and bounds it is obviously due to a system it adapted of holding a mans self esteem and an individuals pride as the highest objective of a free society.

    -----ON INDIAN CULTURE-----

    Anything which is alive changes. A flower blossoms in morning and dies in evening. But a stone remains unchanged for years. You proudly claim that Indian culture has survived onslaught of west. That's simply because like the stone, indian culture is dead

    ReplyDelete
  43. @hemanth
    you are saying so much about why caste system was followd and how it evolved.
    but, wat about "discrimination" based on caste?
    esp untouchability

    ReplyDelete
  44. Happy to see that this discussion has so much life. Thanks all.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @Hemanth You are full of BS. you were talking about morality of Americans loosing virginity at a younger age,but you should know India has a far higher share of Teenage pregnancies than any western nation.

    Think you are one of those guys who believe in "ecxceptionalism" of India, but you should know every Culture has a fair share of its own Manu"smruthis".

    Are you from Arya samaj or some RSS wing ?

    ReplyDelete
  46. @UnitedIndian

    Casteism and corruption necessarily dont Co-relate. If you examine Anna Hazares ideology and his movement in his native Ralegan siddhi , It is essentialy a Bhramanical hegemonical system he got up there.

    Casteism is Corporatism and many Fascist nations virtually eliminated corruption using authoritarianism in combination with corporatism. Seems like thats what Anna is proposing

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  47. Anna hazare got a 'Bhramanical hegemonical system' in Ralegan siddhi? Wonder why a non-brahmin would get that system there TG? But looks like its working....does that mean hegemony by brahmins is good? BS

    ReplyDelete
  48. @Anon Bhramincal dooesnt necessarily mean hegemony by Brahmans, in the case of Ralegon siddi its a Maratha hegemony.

    ReplyDelete
  49. @UnitedIndian
    My friend, you are again thinking out of context.

    --ABOUT CASTE--
    Mamata using caste politics to build her statues is an electoral problem. If she looted public money to build those statues then its a governance problem.Suppose with lok pal,lok ayukta and CBI and tight governance help she was unable to loot money and involve in corruption then also she can win the election by caste politics.

    This caste politics should be addressed by Electoral reforms not governance reforms.Corruption is related to

    governance only and caste politics,etc come under electoral reforms.

    Why are you so obsessed with dalit and upper castes.When I was thinking about any of the above topics I was of idea that it is about Indians as a whole if not India and other countries.If people like you cannot think in present terms and are still disturbed by the happenings before independent India then how can you expect the
    common man to discard the caste politics and see the big picture of India.

    btw..Dalits got uplifted because they got equal or more opportunities than other castes but not because they spoke English.

    You were very agitated about dalits being oppressive caste before independence. Have you given thought how the very forward castes are faring now.People like priests live on the income that comes from people's dakshin and the money paid by govt is a joke. They don't get jobs in govt because they belong to forward castes.They are mostly forced to leave the profession and seek private jobs like others.Even if they want to live the life in service of god they are not allowed to do that because they too have a family and a life to lead.At the same time a person from low caste is allowed to pursue higher education even if he is ineligible just because he is a dalit and has a quota and there will agitation from lower castes. Imagine these kind of people becoming doctors and engineers.This is very much happening now. In places like kerala and goa the upper castes are the 'minorities'.Do you know that.Feel happy and rejoice that the upper castes got what they deserved if you want to but that kind of thinking is extremely low.

    And for all your disdain about the upper castes and brahmin snobbery have you ever tried to know who made an effort to eradicate untouchability and oppressiveness of dalits. Only Ambedkar ? Or do you think the society just magically stopped considering dalits as untouchables ?
    Check this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_reformers_of_India
    See how many dalits are there in that.A sizeable book can be written about each of the person in there for their efforts to reform the society.You can't imagine how much they struggled and fought with people to change them.

    For all this rant I still consider everyone as Indians.I just want to prove you wrong on this anachronistic thinking of dalits vs brahmins.

    ReplyDelete
  50. -About English-
    you are again comparing apples to oranges.
    There are temples for Khusboo and Jayalalita. Does it mean these are equal to english. If chinese occupied us then they would have built a temple for mandarin. They are worshiping the opportunities provided by a language not the language itself.

    Firstly,see what western educated Gandhi thought about English for independent India.
    http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-gand.htm

    We are now talking Hindi not urdu because the ruler Akbar and his forefathers came from Afghanistan and spoke

    Hindi. People in Srirangapatna spoke persian because Tipu Sultan spoke that.Why we are talking english now because british enforced it and we felt happy to continue it after independence.Also its being spoken by most of the others. Suppose if china occupies entire asia and europe and make us speak mandarin then the whole world
    would be speaking mandarin now.Language helps people to communicate and that in a way speeds up progress but not the other way.This is an economy driven world now.We all have to do business with each other due to globalisation.Now US,UK and others speak english predominantly and they are the pay masters so the rest of the world is speaking english to do business. Why do you think Chinese (who are staunch nationalists) are learning english. They want to grab more business and more outsourcing not because english is a beautiful language.Its
    only a matter of convinience.

    In that case english is not a language at all.It took words from all other languages and came into picture.

    There are not native words of english. They all have roots in greek,latin, french and even persian and SANSKRIT. Check for the etymological origins of the words in english like mother, father,brother, etc..

    In a sense english is a gutter language which got polluted by all kinds of other languages.Of course it is just a mixture of words from all languages without proper grammer and pronunciation. Going into the language intricacies you will find lot of concepts like siksha,vyakaranam,chandas,etc in sanskrit which give complete sense.This gives tremendous flexibility in framing sentences in terms of the word sequence and also in combining different words.No other language dealt this as thoroughly as sanskrit. If you observe the vedam recited by the pandits you will know how each syllable is pronounced with the designated intensity(single
    syllable has 16 levels of intensity).The beauty is that it helps in uniformity between sanskrit speaker from any place. Coming to english even americans has difficulty following british accent when they predominantly
    came from britain few hundred years back.Imagine that the maheswara sutras given by Panini 2500 years back helped keep the language intact even after all this time.Thats why unlike other languages there are no sanskrit
    dialects or slangs. Apart from that the english language spoken in victorian times is completely different from what we are speaking now. With addition of lot of words like mantra,avatar,guru, etc..english is becoming more
    sanskrit than english.How can you compare a cross breed language like english with pure language like
    sanskrit..or even latin or greek if that is the case.Etymological studies determined that sanskrit could be as old as 4000 years(I read about this in The Hindu editorial a long back.Couldn't find the link now.Discard this if you want)

    Also you may tell that all are speaking english and no one is speaking sanskirt now. That doesn't reduce its importance. Today more people read playboy than shakesphere.

    come on man..this time its pears and lemons.Its the scientists who get nobel prizes not tha language speakers.If US and UK attracts more scientists then they will have more nobel prizes. Tomorrow it will be chinese.That doesn't lessen english or make chinese better.

    ReplyDelete
  51. -About SANSKRIT-
    Lets suppose that Sanskrit is adopted by whole world or most of the western world a thousand years back.

    -They would know that earth is round not flat.(Bhugolam the word itself suggests that earth is a sphere).
    -They would know that world is called prapancham reason being that every thing is affected by five elements and five senses(karma and gnana) and 5 tanmatras.
    -They will know that universe is called brahmand not brahma golam like earth.They will know that universe is oval shaped not spherical.Of course these scientists also came to know that only recently.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15197712/ns/technology_and_science-space/

    With Ayurveda
    -They would know about brushing the teeth...with barks of 5 different trees and different dental powders.
    -They would know the importance of taking bath and maintaining personal hygiene.
    -They would know various grand ma remedies which would have cured lot of ailments.
    -They would know the behaviour of various elements and different types of foods and how they affect the human body.
    -They would know about the surgical procedures from Susruta samhita.

    -They would know about sun being center of universe and about planetery motions.This can help them navigate the world lot earlier with the knowledge of astrology and constellations.
    -They would be exposed to great knowledge about trignometry and algebra using shulbha sutras along with advanced calculations using vedic mathematics. Remember Indians did yagnas thousands of years back with the yagnavedi constructed with precision according to the rules.Hell Aryabhata invented '0'.Even the best modern day scientist Einstein said that 'We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made'. No one can contradict that.

    -Mantrapushpam recited in the morning says 'yo apam ayatanavan bhavati'..stressing that water being the most important element it should be preserved at all costs.People would worship rivers as they are the keystone of all civilisations.Today we don't be drinking bottled water.
    -Eeswara essentially means the one who has the 8 siddhis..Anima, Mahima,etc..ie God.They mean that who that is small as atom and large as universe.Similar mantram is there in Rudram saying god is there in every atom and filled the universe.I don't think the rest of the ignorant people realized this until recently. Just see how we talked about atomic and sub atomic levels.Even sub atomic polarity is discussed.
    -They would have studied about how god is everlasting and keeps repeating the creation and destruction of universe.This would have given some inclination towards both big bang and steady state theories long back.

    -With this high emphasis on thinking(Bharata comes from dhatu Bha rata means noble thought /devoted to knowledge)

    we would have progressed like anything.What do you think we would be now if we are this advanced a thousand years back. Even without modern day science we came to know all these. We would already be in this internet age atleast half a millennium back.

    From evaporation to evolution everything would have been revealed to those who otherwise lived as barbaric savages. Only Hindu vedic knowledge stood the test of science where all other religions failed modern day science. I just gave a google and got lot of links. Check this for some understanding.See what the western scholars had said. http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/articles/ScienceAdvancedConceptsofHinduism.pdf

    It would fill a library to discuss these and I don't have enough knowledge to talk much.Anyway I hope I made my point.

    ReplyDelete
  52. --MERA BHARAT MAHAAN--
    Again Out of context.I talked about diversity and you are comparing the leadership qualities.I remember asking you not to take single sentences and understand them out of context.

    FYI..Manmohan successfully guided india with sheer acumen through implementation of liberalization. Personally I feel that he is suited to best 2nd in command not first in command.He is an intellectual not a leader.Anyway its my personal opinion.

    -- On USA --
    Yesterday I read these two articles.

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-15/us/29421190_1_female-condoms-active-high-school-

    students-mail
    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-15/ahmedabad/29420985_1_ei-learning-maths-programme
    'they said the dropping standards of Maths education among the children in USA has emerged as an issue of great concern for the authorities there'

    No need to comment further about these.

    'it is obviously due to a system it adapted of holding a mans self esteem and an individuals pride as the highest objective'. Maybe you were talking about 'American's' not 'Man's'.Because unlike Indian evolution American evolution started with a war which completely eradicated the native american civilization amounting to genocide.The vietnam war, iraq war, even bhopal gas tragedy dont give any impression that they really put other people's welfare on par with American's. Personally I don't think gun culture is a matter of self esteem.Its more of a security threat to the individual and society.

    --ON INDIAN CULTURE--

    'Anything which is alive changes'.
    Are you telling about gita 'Jatasya hi dhruvo mrutyuhu'.
    Or maybe you must be talking about the whole creation.. jagat itself meaning jayate gachate iti jagat..the one which takes birth and dies eventually.
    Or maybe its only that any thing coming to philosophy is already defined in vedas and thoroughly debated in purva,uttara mimamsas and upanishads.

    'That's simply because like the stone, Indian culture is dead'
    I always ask not to give blanket statements without proof.
    How about talking about yoga centers in west.Being exposed too much to sex they even started nude yoga.
    How about the meditation centers. How about this.
    http://www.meditationgeek.org/2010/03/us-army-intends-to-train-11-million-us.html
    Now everyone is realizing about meditation when we have it from time unknown.That too with just the basic one

    for beginners.We even have the most advanced concepts of Srividya, shatchakra bhedanam given only to sanyasis who mastered the mind.

    Would you like to talk about age old ayurvedic things like Neem,Turmeric,etc which even an illiterate housewife knows here and how the patent pirates tried to steal this by wrong patenting.Now India had to create a database to consolidate this list of traditional knowledge just to protect these native things from being stolen by greedy corporations.

    Please keep an open mind.Dont be biased before even hearing my argument.No one can convince you unless you are convinced by yourself. All the time I felt that you might read Stephen covey and appreciate the success tips.

    But if I tell that vidura neeti gave much better insight into this(Even sheelasamskaranam and Hitopadese Mitralabha which is nothing but panchatantra we read in intermediate sanskrit are much better personality development chapters).I can also tell how the best employee is visible in Hanuma in Ramayana, the mindset of an achiever before starting a task, the kinds of difficulties that are faced in the path to success, how and when they should be overcome by strength,intellect and compassion. How difficulties will depress the individual and how one should come out of it..everything can be shown in just Hanuman's endeavor to find Sita. But in the end you will just question if Ramayana is true, how a monkey can jump the ocean and other completely irrelevant questions and miss my point.

    ReplyDelete
  53. @nenusaitam
    You definitely are a telugu person.

    Remember the song from Mahesh babu Okkadu.
    Sahana bhavatu Sahanau Bhunaktu, Saha veeryam karavavahai tejasvinavadheetamastu maa vidvishavahai.
    Lets live together, lets eat together lets get enlightened and lets not fight among ourselves. This is called santi matram from vedas.

    This famous song by Annamayya hundreds of years back.
    http://www.karnatik.com/c1107.shtml
    Read its meaning in the bottom.He was praising the lord with the essence of vedas. Vedas never advocated or encouraged untouchability.The imperfect humans only did that.Even Annamayya wants to convey the same to the society in singing songs with such meaning.

    My personal take on how untouchability came into practice : Worship of god as per vedas demands waking up before sunrise and do trikala sandhyavandanam which involves bath and elaborate ablution procedures along with different mandatory practices like agni karma,etc.. Normally working class would not be so hygenic after working in fields they must be have been discouraged from entering temples in such situation. Maybe the ruling class got this too deep into their heads and to keep power in their hands they started practicing untouchability and different living spaces for different castes, etc..

    ReplyDelete
  54. @TG
    'India has a far higher share of Teenage pregnancies than any western nation'
    Can you provide the statistics to prove this for pregnancies in unmarried teens.

    'every Culture has a fair share of its own Manu"smruthis"'
    Again can you provide the references on other 'smrithis' dealing with the governance,law making,philosophy, etc..which are considered by experts to be on par or better than the respective Indian 'smrithis'.


    'Are you from Arya samaj or some RSS wing ? '
    Do I need to be from Arya samaj or RSS to support my idealogy. Can't I be just a Hindu who likes his ideology.I am an average software engg who bordered on atheism till 4 years back.After listening to a discourse on Ramayana I got interested in Hinduism and pursued the knowledge mostly in the internet and other discourses. I also tried to gain knowledge on other religions as well to understand different ideologies.

    I am sorry if I gave an impression of American hater.I have many American friends in my Facebook whom I know better than my real time friends due to my interaction with them in an online game.They are some of the nicest persons I have ever met and will be friends with them for life.I just wanted to provide a counter point to UnitedIndian's view.

    I will be happy if you can negate my reasoning or logic by providing some counter logic and statistics to support that rather than giving blanket statements or categorization me into some groups.Lets keep everything civil and academic.

    ReplyDelete
  55. @Hemanth

    1)--ABOUT CASTE--
    " a person from low caste is allowed to pursue higher education even if he is ineligible"
    Ineligible?Is he getting admission through lottery? Doesn't he have to clear an admission test to qualify?Doesn't he have to pass his exams to get a degree?

    There are many articles on reservation on this blog. I recommend http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/reservations-vi-hollow-arguments-from.html

    2)-ABOUT ENGLISH-
    "western educated Gandhi thought about English for independent India."
    I don't have much respect for Gandhi. His soul was great(hence Mahatma), but his intelligence was mediocre.He was not farsighted. In his1925 book "Hind Swaraj" and in his 1945 letters to Nehru he
    recommended abolishing postal system, telegraph, railways i.e. all the contributions of modern science. Luckily for us , Nehru was wiser.

    "Its only a matter of convinience."
    Bingo! I wan't dalits to be convinient in English.

    "english is a gutter language"
    So, why are you writing long articles in English? BTW, Tagore got nobel only when he translated Gitanjali into this "gutter language". Vivekananda used this "gutter language" in 1893 in Chicago. Even to explain the greatness of the Upanishads he had to english , not Sanskrit. Poor chap! Amartya Sen wrote his research papers in this "gutter language".

    "No other language dealt this as thoroughly as sanskrit"
    I accept Sanskrit is the world's most beauuuuutiful language So why don't you invent a computer which uses Sanskrit?And market it?

    3)-ABOUT SANSKRIT and INDIAN CULTURE-

    Ah Yes! About time!

    Tell me, what has India given to the world in the last 63 years after independence? The answer is "Shunya"- nothing, zero, cipher.Our politicians, army generals, police, chief justice, media- all are corrupt.
    Still we proudly claim "Mera Bharat Mahaan"

    May I ask, why is India great?

    The steady answer is, of course, ourVED+UPANISHAD+GITA+YOG+AYURVEDA+INVENTION OF ZERO( Yessss!!!!!). (BTW do you know Space-time continum may have been discoverd in India? Ever heard of ASHTAVAKRA GITA? I am quoting a line from wikisource "For me established in my own glory, there is no past, future or present. There is no space or even eternity. " http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ashtavakra_Gita#Chapter_XIX)

    Agreed, India was great. But note, WAS.

    It is like a beggar saying "I am a beggar, but my ancestors were EMPERORS"

    The problem with people like you is- you are past oriented, you are always looking behind. If your kind of people had invented the car, the head lights would have been in place of tail-lights.

    I am future-oriented. I prefer to look ahead . That's why I am repeatedly emphasizing compulsory English and removal of caste-discrimination( if it is possible). This will lead to upliftment of backward classes, will help to remove corruption, and will finally help to make my India really great.

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  56. Hemanth,

    You started off your arguments very well but the moment you said we had a woman PM or President but US never did, you completely lost me.

    That is the most ignorant and moronic arguement any one can make. I'm being bit emotional here but that is the worst of the worst arguments any one can make when comparing status of a woman in Indian society to that of one in US. How many girls are even born before they are terminated in the womb. How many widows remarry or go on with their lifes?. How many women have the liberty to say no their abusive husbands? How many women have the ability to live on their own without the repressions and abuse of the society.

    NONE of these women like - Patil, Sonia, Indira, Laloo's wife etc are self made. They were thrust into these positions which were essentially given to them. To me, these people are symbols of oppression of a woman in India.

    Isnt it an irony that we Indians seem to be willing to make Widows and Actresses our leaders whereas in real life a Window is subjected to abuse and a respectable father would never let his daughter to become an actress.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Hemanth,

    You started off your arguments very well but the moment you said we had a woman PM or President but US never did, you completely lost me.

    That is the most ignorant and moronic arguement any one can make. I'm being bit emotional here but that is the worst of the worst arguments any one can make when comparing status of a woman in Indian society to that of one in US.

    How many girls are even born before they are terminated in the womb. How many widows remarry or go on with their lifes?. How many women have the liberty to say no their abusive husbands? How many women have the ability to live on their own without the repressions and abuse of the society.

    NONE of these women like - Patil, Sonia, Indira, Laloo's wife etc are self made. They were thrust into these positions which were essentially given to them. To me, these people are symbols of oppression of a woman in India.

    Isnt it an irony that we Indians seem to be willing to make Widows and Actresses our leaders whereas in real life a Window is subjected to abuse and a respectable father would never let his daughter to become an actress.

    ReplyDelete
  58. @Hemanth
    <<Can you provide the statistics to prove this for pregnancies in unmarried teens.

    So I guess it is ok for you and your "mera Bharat Mahan" Gang when a 16 year old "thin indian" Child bride who is not even physically developed to become pregnant while you are Outraged when a 16 year old Healthy American gal who is fully Physically and emotionally matured explores her sexuality. Your Indian Morality is Absurd to the extreme.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @Sridhar

    Yes, I totally agree with you. The child sex-ratio has come down from 927 to a miserable 914.

    Like casteism, preference for the male child is a curse for India.

    I do not see any solution, short-term or long-term. Education is also not helping. Why is it that the ratio is 860 in South West Delhi, where the richest and most educated people live? Among NRIs in USA also the ratio is lower than among blacks or whites

    ReplyDelete
  60. @UnitedIndian
    1)--ABOUT CASTE--
    My only intention when I called ineligible is that even if a person from backward castes get a very large rank he is given admission and even when a meritorious student from forward caste gets good rank he is denied a seat.

    I am not much of an authority to discuss about the merits and demerits of current reservation system.I only talked about the earlier caste system and how it came into picture.When you talked about dalits being backward in present age I just wanted to tell about a section of upward castes who are also 'backward'.

    2)-ABOUT ENGLISH-
    I just gave a viewpoint of Gandhi but because of your bias about gandhi you just don't want to even consider it.As usual You took a single instance and extrapolated it to formulate an opinion about the entire picture.

    For all the rest of the argument my sentence 'Its only a matter of convinience' explains it and You missed my argument again. WE SPEAK ENGLISH BECAUSE EVERYONE SPEAKS IT.Period.It still doesn't make it a better language. It will only make it most spoken language.Do you know language scholars wanted to add some more alphabets to English to make it more flexible.Because in the current form the language is unable to give proper pronunciation to many words. But the efforts didn't materialize and the deficiencies still remain. That doesn't stop the people from using it and that doesn't make it a better language either.

    btw..sanskrit was found to be the best language for computers. I didn't put that sentence earlier because I couldn't find proper link for that.Now also I don't know if its true.But if the whole world switches to sanskrit then we can make a sanskrit computer.. Like what japanese and chinese are did to their computers.

    3)-ABOUT SANSKRIT and INDIAN CULTURE-

    Ah..Ashtavakra Gita..a master piece but not for the beginners so I don't know much.
    Those sentences are spoken by janaka from videha(vi deha = bodiless ie soul) vamsa.Being an atma yogi he sees himself as a soul.Hence those statements.It's the same in the Namakam part of Rudram,Namakam and Chamakam when it says 'Namaha purvajayacha madhyamayacha namaha parajayacha'(Being timeless you are the eldest,middle and youngest). For this scenario your scientific analogy will suffice.

    I am future-oriented. I prefer to look ahead.'

    Is it..I thought the entire discussion about distant past started when you questioned the very ideals of our society and started praising the ideals of western society on which it was founded.And all this time I only compared the ideals.

    'Agreed, India was great. But note, WAS.'
    Exactly.Thats what I was telling. We had a great past.thats it.


    'Tell me, what has India given to the world in the last 63 years after independence?
    'The problem with people like you is- you are past oriented'

    Isn't this what I said earlier :
    "'I also mentioned this sentence 'Leave the past few decades of history and in the current internet age we have to start rethinking and rediscover ourselves.' My intention is that the past few decades don't exactly resemble the true Indian spirit and we should start the rediscovery.'"

    This is the third time I posted that sentence. I gave all those past references only to show that the problem lies not in our past ideologies but in the present internet age and if at all there was a problem its due to the imperfect people in implementing the ideologies but not the core idea itself. Isn't this is all I was telling in so many words.No where did I say anything about the past ideals bringing greatness to present situation.

    If our past and other's past gives us some lessons to make us better then so be it.

    ReplyDelete
  61. @Sridhar
    You can find my prior statement somewhere above regd this. I said these statements about Kalam and Indira to show that diversity that exists here also. Whatever you said about girls is entirely valid and no where I said otherwise.I agree with you about the scenarios you mentioned.But no where it prevents us from having the diversity either and my grand daughter can still become a PM here also. That was my only argument. You took it outside the context.

    @TG
    If you guess something then its your guess.US has rampant sexuality which became a problem for their society now.If they have that much maturity when pursuing sexuality then there wont be so many STDs and so many abortions there. I only talked about this sexuality concept.If you guess that I endorse Indian child marriages then its again your guess not mine.

    ReplyDelete
  62. @UnitedIndian
    1)--ABOUT CASTE--
    My only intention when I called ineligible is that even if a person from backward castes get a very large rank he is given admission and even when a meritorious student from forward caste gets good rank he is denied a seat.

    I am not much of an authority to discuss about the merits and demerits of current reservation system.I only talked about the earlier caste system and how it came into picture.When you talked about dalits being backward in present age I told about a section of upward castes who are also 'backward'.

    2)-ABOUT ENGLISH-
    I just gave a viewpoint of Gandhi but because of your bias about gandhi you just don't want to even consider it.As usual You took a single instance and extrapolated it to formulate an opinion about the entire picture.

    For all the rest of the argument my sentence 'Its only a matter of convinience' explains it and You missed my argument again. WE SPEAK ENGLISH BECAUSE EVERYONE SPEAKS IT.Period.It still doesn't make it a better language. It will only make it most spoken language.Do you know language scholars wanted to add some more alphabets to English to make it more flexible.Because in the current form the language is unable to give proper pronunciation to many words. But the efforts didn't materialize and the deficiencies still remain. That doesn't stop the people from using it and that doesn't make it a better language either.

    btw..sanskrit was found to be the best language for computers. I didn't put that sentence earlier because I couldn't find proper link for that.Now also I don't know if its true.But if the whole world switches to sanskrit then we can make a sanskrit computer.. Like what japanese and chinese are did to their computers.

    3)-ABOUT SANSKRIT and INDIAN CULTURE-

    Ah..Ashtavakra Gita..a master piece but not for the beginners so I don't know much.
    Those sentences are spoken by janaka from videha(vi deha = bodiless ie soul) vamsa.Being an atma yogi he sees himself as a soul.Hence those statements.It's the same in the Namakam part of Rudram,Namakam and Chamakam when it says 'Namaha purvajayacha madhyamayacha namaha parajayacha'(Being timeless you are the eldest,middle and youngest). For this scenario your scientific analogy will suffice.

    I am future-oriented. I prefer to look ahead.'

    Is it..I thought the entire discussion about distant past started when you questioned the very ideals of our society and started praising the ideals of western society on which it was founded.And all this time I only compared the ideals.

    'Agreed, India was great. But note, WAS.'
    Exactly.Thats what I was telling. We had a great past.thats it.


    'Tell me, what has India given to the world in the last 63 years after independence?
    'The problem with people like you is- you are past oriented'

    Isn't this what I said earlier :
    "'I also mentioned this sentence 'Leave the past few decades of history and in the current internet age we have to start rethinking and rediscover ourselves.' My intention is that the past few decades don't exactly resemble the true Indian spirit and we should start the rediscovery.'"

    This is the third time I posted that sentence. I gave all those past references only to show that the problem lies not in our past ideologies but in the present internet age and if at all there was a problem its due to the imperfect people in implementing the ideologies but not the core idea itself. Isn't this is all I was telling in so many words.No where did I say anything about the past ideals bringing greatness to present situation.

    If our past and other's past gives us some lessons to make us better then so be it.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Hemanth,

    What makes you think Girls growing up in India,will be 'pure virgins' when they go out of college

    If virginity and womens sexuality is a pedestal for society don't you think Islamic culture is more purer ?Girls growing up in saudi have more chance to be virgins than girls growing up in Mumbai and Hyderabad by the time they reach college

    Islamic women are more modest ,more vigin like and more disciplined in house ,don't you think so ?

    -Also ,who told you aryabhatta invented '0',last time i heard priests isolated him for heliocentric theory and he DID not use zero in his positional math system
    ,It was bramhagupta who 'used' zero ,in 598 CE vedic maths had no knowlede of 'zero',BTW indians just used zero in a notational system ,they did not 'invent' it , no one 'Invented' zero,all culture had an idea of zero but bramhagupta used it in a postional system.

    -Bramhagupta and Aryabhatta were non -vedic scholars ,they did not derive their knowledge from veda's ,and aryabhtta hated vedic-astrology ,he was an astronomer

    Indian astronomy ,and Math took off after 1 AD not during the vedic age

    ReplyDelete
  64. @Hemanth
    <<<If you guess something then its your guess.US has rampant sexuality..


    Rampant sexuality, what the hell does it mean, u invented a new phrase i guess.

    ReplyDelete
  65. The SECOND ARYAN INVASION


    Hindu has published an article, reitarating something i have been saying for a long time, Soon South India will be deluged by a Influx of millions of "SERAS" sorry North indians, The fertility rates in South India have reached a "Replacement point" i.e Birth rates = death rates. So South Indias population will actually start Falling like many Developed countries, But the Fertility rate in most North Indian states is double that of AP's, and in the case of UP and bihar 3.8 and 4 respectively.

    Hindu<<<<In 1951, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu had 26 per cent of India's population and by 2011, this figure declines to 21 per cent. Projections are that these States will account for only 16 per cent of the country's population in 2051. On the other hand, the population of four large north Indian States will increase from 37 per cent in 2011 to 44 per cent in 2051.

    If GOI doesnt takes steps to this problem there is gonna be a Huge violent MESS with a potential for the disintegration of the Country. We may all need Mulki rules in the coming days.

    ReplyDelete
  66. @true-hindu
    I didn't give any extreme statements about virginity being sacred and should be preserved at all costs till marriage. nor did I tell anything about banning or preventing teenage sex.I just told about the problems in the societies it caused when I made a comparision.

    Personally I condemn abortions unless they are in extreme cases like rape or some strong personal choices but not because of unwanted pregnancy or gender discrimination.When people have control over the thoughts and know what they are doing then they can pursue their will.Psychologists say that premature exposure to sex will cause confusion and hamper the healthy growth.

    Thanks for informing about 0. I didn't know this before. There are many things coming up and existing notions are being corrected..like the aryan invasion theory. I remember reading in news paper sometime back about Royal Society corrected that the Pythagoras theorem is in fact dealt by Bodhayana much before.Some theory is that Chandragupta was called 'Sandrokottos' in greek..same way pythogoras could really be Pitha Guru.I don't know the validity of this.Just heard it somewhere.

    Aryabhata did significant works in astronomy and mathematics.Be it 1 AD or much later India has this knowledge before others.That was my overall idea.

    @TG
    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-15/us/29421190_1_female-condoms-active-high-school-students-mail

    The above link is what I gave earlier. The govt started giving free condoms to even 11 year olds to curb the menace of STDs which became a major problem there. Its not that the govt did studies to realize that 11 year olds are mature enough to pursue sex.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_transmitted_disease
    'At least one in four U.S. teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease,[18] a CDC study found.[19] Among girls who admitted ever having sex, the rate was 40%'

    That is what I meant when I talked about rampant sex.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_teenage_pregnancy
    'Over 80% of teenage pregnancies in the U.S. are unintended;[17] approximately one third end in abortion, one third end in spontaneous miscarriage, and one third will continue their pregnancy and keep their baby'

    'Within the United States teen pregnancy is often brought up in political discourse. The goal to limit teen pregnancy is shared by Republicans and Democrats'

    See it became a political issue there and they themselves are thinking its a problem and should be reduced but you still feel its ok.

    Now what..a grammer lesson about phrases..hope you stick to the idea behind the discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  67. @hemanth,
    "If you guess that I endorse Indian child marriages then its again your guess not mine."
    Seeing your love for Indian culture I am shocked that you do not endorse child marriages. Isn't it the greatest sin for a hindu father not to have married off his daughter before puberty?
    Again, when UnitedIndian said India has the highest number of teenage pregnancies you retorted by asking for the statistics on 'Unmarried' teenage pregnancies. Why? Is it ok for a married teen to be pregnant? Americans are not proud of their preganant teens, even their parents worry about such cases, the difference being that it is a matter of worry and not shame. Thus such pregnant teens get the best possible health care to ensure their safety. In India a similar such case would lead to the murder of the daughter by her father, proves that Indian parents are more worried about culture than about their own children. I would not want this type of culture for my kids.
    BTW, premarital sex is rampant not only among college going girls but even uneducated village girls(read not exposed to western culture). The only difference is that such things are hushed up under the carpet. I would know, since I am a college educated, working woman who hails from a village in north india.

    ReplyDelete
  68. @rk
    'Isn't it the greatest sin for a hindu father not to have married off his daughter before puberty?'
    Please read Satyartha Prakasam by Swami Dayananda Saraswati.Hinduism never advocated any such thing as child marriages.It even gave a detailed description on the characteristics of the man and woman eligible for marriage.If people engaged in bad practices then its the fault of people.

    'Is it ok for a married teen to be pregnant'
    No its not.Pregnancy adversly affects the physical and mental health of a teenager.

    'In India a similar such case would lead to the murder of the daughter by her father'
    I agree.Similar thing happens to rape victims also.That is a major deficiency in our society now.

    'premarital sex is rampant not only among college going girls but even uneducated village girls'
    There could be premarital sex in all kinds of girls and boys..be it from village or city..uneducated or educated. Only that we don't have it on such a large scale as other countries.But yes many cases go un reported here. Even then the social taboo acts as a deterrent to this.In any situation a post marital pregnancy is better than a pre marital one..atleast for the child.

    Most of my knowledge comes mostly from news papers and internet sources like wiki.You must have better idea on this area.In case I am wrong I am ready to take corrections.

    ReplyDelete
  69. @hemanth,
    Hindu scriptures clearly define the marriagable age for a woman,

    http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch9/ch9_91_100.htm

    " A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner."

    Swami dayanand saraswati was a reformer. He interpreted vedas his own ways to reform the society. But whatever he said is hardly followed. He was against caste system and idol worship too, but we all know how many temples exist in India and how much are they visited. As for caste system, I have no words to say. No matter how often we say it doesn't exist, everyone knows the truth in their hearts.

    The fact is, that Indian(read Hindu) culture is defined not by what is written in the scriptures but by what is followed by the society at large, and here is an example of that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

    "According to UNICEF's "State of the World's Children-2009" report, 47% of India's women aged 20–24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% in rural areas.[14] The report also showed that 40% of the world's child marriages occur in India."

    What I am trying to say is that, we can hardly point fingers at someone else's culture of allowing under age sex when our own culture not only condones it but even promotes it(by getting our children married).

    Several of my aunts became mothers before they were 18. Infact, I myself was born when my mother was 19 years old(19 is still teen, even though legally she was an adult).

    Marriage should not be considered a
    license for allowing something wrong, and as an age old saying goes, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others homes."

    ReplyDelete
  70. @FREINDS,
    I SEE THIS THREAD CLEARLY GOING OFF TOPIC FROM CORRUPTION TO HINDU TRADITIONS.
    please try to stick to the topic.
    and regarding bribery, i se it as a typical "koodi mundha, guddu mundha" problem.
    those who give bribes blame the takers and tose who seek put the blame on tho ones who offered.they also blame others saying "every one is corrupt.if we dont give/take bribes, others would do the same and get what they want.why shd we alone fall back"

    what is needed is that every individual shd stick to his/her conscious and take a firm decision that we wont give or take bribe, no matter whatever may be the consequences

    ReplyDelete
  71. @UnitedIndian


    I agree that people in US are more promiscuous and their is a higher prevalence of STD's but most of these diseases are not Life threatening or Life altering, but a higher percentage of Indians die from complications arising out of STD's than US or rest of the west.

    While you and your "Bharat Mahan" gang show your disgust at the Lewd and un-womanly behavior of US women you fail to show your Disgust when Indian women (even some middle class) openly defecate on Public places as a Morning Ritual in many Rural places and cities, Is not Unwoanly for your hinduvata gang.



    You are worried about "Rampant Sex" in US , did it distress you emotionally or physically when US people indulge in sex, You and your morally pure hinduvata gang should bear responsibility for the widespread sexual Harrarsement of millions of Indian gals that arises primarly due to Repression of sexuality by your Moral goon squad.

    ReplyDelete
  72. srry @Hemanth


    I agree that people in US are more promiscuous and their is a higher prevalence of STD's but most of these diseases are not Life threatening or Life altering, but a higher percentage of Indians die from complications arising out of STD's than US or rest of the west.

    While you and your "Bharat Mahan" gang show your disgust at the Lewd and un-womanly behavior of US women you fail to show your Disgust when Indian women (even some middle class) openly defecate on Public places as a Morning Ritual in many Rural places and cities, Is not Unwoanly for your hinduvata gang.



    You are worried about "Rampant Sex" in US , did it distress you emotionally or physically when US people indulge in sex, You and your morally pure hinduvata gang should bear responsibility for the widespread sexual Harrarsement of millions of Indian gals that arises primarly due to Repression of sexuality by your Moral goon squad.

    ReplyDelete
  73. @rk
    The link you gave is an interpolation in manusmriti. If you are really interested to know the truths then you should definitely read Satyartha Prakasam. Swami Dayananda saraswati just didn't give his own thoughts. He disproved many existing misinterpretations and wrong practices. He showed many mistakes in current practices some by proofs and some by logic.He successfully proved the interpolations in many scriptures. Just because he didn't succeed in implementation doesn't disqualify his views or make the whole religion a wrong practice.
    Read these from the same manusmriti and judge yourself.
    http://www.satyavidya.org/frauds-and-myths/history-and-culture/167-manu-smriti-on-womanhood
    http://www.satyavidya.org/frauds-and-myths/history-and-culture/166-manu-smriti-and-sudras

    I myself take pride in the fact that my great grandfathers abolished animal sacrifice in the village after reading satyartha prakasam and informing the rest of the people.

    Yes, idol worship is not explicitly mentioned in vedas. Dayananda proved that point only by talking about pratima,its meaning,etc... He wanted people to follow yagnas and other vedic rituals.

    That doesn't mean idol worship is banned in vedas when they also said god is shapeless and omnipresent in everything living and non living.
    Sarvam khalu idam brahma or aham brahmasmi.

    Just by that sentence can we really see omnipresent god.If I tell you 'jagan mithya brahma satyam'..this world is an illusion and only god is the reality..will you be able to view it like that. We only see the world and where is god.

    Please read this very short story by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa for understanding my view.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabanews/message/23107

    To see a god everywhere and in fellow human being one has to possess that elevated mind.And he is called a yogi and such a yogi need not do anything at all.He reached the end of his journey to salvation.This idol worship is let a common man who is unable to see god everywhere to pursue his faith. But it is not the means or end.Idol worship is the first step to climb the next step to see the god in everything,not just a human form or a lingam.

    Gita said
    ye yada maam prapadyante taam tadaiva srujamyamaham.

    Akasaat patitam toyam yatha gachati sagaram
    sarva deva namaskaraha kesavam prati gachati.

    In whatver people worship me I will appear to them in that manner. Like the water that rains in the sky but goes to the ocean ,salutations to all gods go to kesava.

    Religion only to cater to the different thoughts of different people.
    yadannavai manavaha tadannavai devaha
    yad bhashavai manavaha tad bhasha vai devaha.
    Like humans like god..their language his language.

    So we had different schools of thoughts to cater to different people's philosophical needs.
    Dvaita,Advaita,Visishtadvaita,etc...to enable one to worship the omnipresent and genderless god as a man or a woman or a unison(arthanareeswara) or the cosmos itself in nataraja or as pure knowledge in lingam(sivalingam is a jyoti ie..knowledge..but not a phallus or a union of male and female forces as its popularly known) or just as an omkaram.

    These all are different schools of thought which still stay within the framework of Vedas.

    Things get misinterpreted in due course of time.Unlike other religions ours was based on oral teaching and so was more prone to distortion. What do you think Adi Sankara did in his lifetime.He corrected a lot of misinterpretations of vedas,established 6 sub religions(shaivism,vaishnavism,souram,etc..) to let people pursue their faith in their own manner and brought all these under Advaita.These misinterpretations exist every time for all religions.

    ReplyDelete
  74. -cont


    Dayananda's ideas are impractical in present times.If everyone is asked to learn vedas and do sandhyavandanam everyday and the yagnas according to their marital status its not possible.Tell everyone not to go to temple and either do this or stop following completely.Then what.99% will leave the faith because when it comes to survival we give more importance to livelihood than god.After all we are not sanyasis to ditch everything in pursuit of god.The rest 1% will continue either because they are interested or just paid to do it.


    'culture is defined not by what is written in the scriptures but by what is followed by the society at large'

    When I talked about the ideologies I was talking about the core ideas behind their foundations.If you want to talk about how they changed and how the society is following now then I can talk about how other religions started and they transformed and how they are being followed now.How christianity became more of a political tool than a religion to wage crusades..how the western seminaries are now empty with no followers.How wahabi sect in islam uses radical approach to increase militancy,etc..and still compare them to current hindu culture.Even the most peaceful religions of Buddhism and jainism had their fair share of controversies. We ourselves had shaivaites and vaishnavaits going at each others throats not so long back.

    My intention always is that the ideology is always right but it gets distorted in due course of time due to the imperfect humans. Why do you think strict monotheisms like christinaty and islam has so many sects each having different opinions when they all have worship the single god.Being a polytheism our vedas incorporated all possible philosophies in Hinduism.

    So we humans are so imperfect that we can't even follow a single idea for a prolonged time? If taken to the extreme then the question comes whether god created man or man created god. Lets stay away from that..its another discussion.Every religion and ideology has their good points for a good life.Even a staunch Hindu can live a good life following ten commandments.In fact We don't need to stick to any religion at all just to live a good life.Of course such a thinking also comes under Hinduism(gatasuncha agataasuncha naanu sochanti panditaaha --Gita)

    For me the following two slokas by Vyasa are enough

    In Devi Bhagavatam :
    Aahara nidra bhaya maithunani samanyametat pasubhirnaranam
    Gnanam naraanam adhiko visesho gnanam heenena pasubhih samanaha

    Eating,sleeping,fear and carnal pleasures are same for animals and man.
    Man has very high conscience without which there is no difference between him and animal.

    Regd the essence of Mahabharata :
    Paropakaraya punyaya papaya parapeedaya
    Good deeds to others gives punyam and bad deeds to others is papam.

    Like the saying in Gita..noble thoughts,simple needs,moderation in habits and helping others are more than enough to give satisfaction in the path of life.

    ReplyDelete
  75. -cont

    @TG also

    I talked about teenage sex and you are talking about child marriages.I got your point when you compared them. I never supported child marriages.In fact I know better than you because even though I am city born my parents are from village.I was borne when my mother is 17 and being a lady even if she didn't tell me anything I know that she had suffered..at least with some depression which continued on to later years.Even though father is highly educated and encouraged mother to pursue double master's degree they still got married early due to the family decisions.

    Child marriage problem can be easily corrected by educating the public.A few decades back girl child was never sent to study.Even if she was allowed it was only till school but not for higher studies.Now its not such a problem.Girls are joining MNCs and even going abroad all alone.Proper approach with media ads and other means of education should be pursued.

    Be it a teen or an adult I feel that post marriage pregnancy is far better than pre marriage one..in terms of relation or society or family or most importantly the child.

    In west they go for late pregnancies. I don't know much and You should know better about the physical problems this cause. But psychologists say that delayed pregnancy stops the couple from entering the next stage of bonding which helps keeping the marriage intact.

    Even without the problem of STDs or pregnancy I still oppose teen sex, especially pre marriage. We consider marriage to be sacred.Now a days no one knows Sanskrit and the meaning is lost but the mantras all are about the responsibilities of man to take proper care of his wife and how both are equally important for a good marriage life.If sex is just considered as another body need like hunger then the process of marriage will be another ritual to be performed for the audience and the whole marriage will be a partnership for convenience.If you say teen sex is just pursuing one's own freedom of choice then why not pursue it after marriage. Otherwise marriage is just oppressing one's freedom.

    The unmarried teen sex issue is significant because the teens become adults. These habits will carry forward in later life..hence the possibility of increased divorces....hence the pre nuptial agreements to take care of post divorce situation.Here we don't have the peer pressure to lose virginity before going out of high school.No one feels ashamed if he stayed virgin till marriage.We have lesser number of partner cheating issues and divorces because of these factors.

    Child marriages will impact the physical condition of the girl because of the pregnancy. But do you know abortion isn't advised and almost never prescribed for the first child because it can impact the later pregnancy chances(heard from a very experienced gynecologist). Its only done for rape victims and unwanted pregnancies like teens. And 1 out of 4 American teens get pregnant(the rest 3 can be having STDs..that is another major problem) and out of this 80% of the pregnancies result in abortions. Analise yourself on how many dead fetuses per year.

    In terms of child marriages the west is far far better than us.Our society maybe myopic in viewing a single parent in bad light(I still feel that both father and mother are equally imp for a child). But even in the progressive west 80% of the teen pregnancies are terminated. That must be a sizable problem.

    This was my whole idea when I asked about unmarried teen sex comparison.

    ReplyDelete
  76. -cont

    I have a good friend who married a guy from village in her teens due to the family pressure.She later pursued her education and got a state rank and went on to get a job in an MNC.Later that husband suffered from egoism and asked her to stop working and come back to village.There the clashes started and went till divorce.

    I asked her to take professional help and she did.The Councillor asked her to reduce her ambitions at least for some time and go correct her family life.So she reduced her targets and compromised with the work at home option the company gave to her.Now she is working from the village albeit in reduced role. She questioned the Councillor(who happens to be a pastor by profession with psychology degree) if they never advice the people to take divorce. He said no matter what the couple should try to resolve the differences and only in extreme conditions like physical violence should a divorce be considered.

    If I myself gave that advice you might call me an Hindu extremist.My friend, an ardent devotee of Rama listened to the pastor's words and now living a normal but peaceful life.She is even contemplating kids because now she is confident of her husband and his ability to take care of family. The only reason they both are together now is because both took compromises for each other and gave a chance to marriage.

    My point is that Its the nature of human's to be imperfect and marriage life is about liking the other person irrespective of the inherent deficiencies.That's what the pastor told indirectly.And if we marry someone we will share everything with the partner and live till end no matter what the deficiencies are. Here sex acts as a good bonding factor.If each one pursues sex like its another human activity then the purpose of marriage gets defeated. Here Social taboo and these other factors help our society keep a marriage intact.

    I don't say its utopia here..many oppressive women stay in marriage worried about society and many child marriages happen in villages. People are killing couples because they married inter caste. These can and must be corrected and should be done asap. Education is one sure way to do that...and strict punishment also helps.




    @TG
    You must be talking about lack of healthcare and public toilets.That must be a problem of the govt.They should build proper facilities.

    Just because you get a thrill of defecating in public even when you have a toilet at home..don't assume that any other person from any culture would also get thrilled doing so. If someone is doing that then thats due to the lack of the facilities.

    And You definitely have some problem being civil even when I asked you not to call names or categorise into some groups.

    Kshiyante akhila bhushanani vagbhushanam bhushanam
    speech adds colour to the character.your speech..your colour..your character.

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  77. I will respect nenusaitam's post.We already digressed a lot.This discussion isn't likely to stop here.But its not for me.

    This will be my last post in this blog.I had a great time spending here even when I felt there is a unspoken Miranda law here..that I have the right to remain silent and anything or everything will be used against me irrespective of the context or time frame.Even then I thoroughly enjoyed my stay here and felt that the more the merrier.Of course I was called names and attributed to radical groups(TG..I will misssss you) but still I had my fun.

    But its eating up my personal time and rather than learning something I am tapping away my time here.I had a good debate with everyone and thanks for all that.In GD I will get marks for trying to hold fort against many but will be penalized for digressing off the topic.

    On a parting thought I felt that my US and European friends were more receptive when we exchanged our thoughts.There seem to be more pessimism and assumptions here.I request everyone to be more open and rather than assuming something just because people are doing it .. just try to know what its supposed to be..ie..if you are really interested.We can't the system anyway.Good luck.

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  78. <<<<Just because you get a thrill of defecating in public even when you have a toilet at home..don't assume that any other person from any culture would also get thrilled doing so.


    According to the 2001 census, 13.6 percent of India�s urban population and 78.4 percent of the rural population practiced open defecation.
    Source:http://www.adb.org/water/Actions/IND/Toilet-Technology.asp


    Its due to "Bharat Mahan" fanboys like you who are the Ultimate Traitors and the prime reason the country is stuck, if you say "denmark Mahan" i got no problem, a country doesnt become great by winning Cricket world cup matches or by getting a permanent seat in UNSC.

    When you compare Bharat to Bharatmata, and say that it So sacred and pure that it is Beyond Criticism , It only leads to Corruption when u gag the mouths of those who Criticize it.

    And about your Bhagvat gita, Nazis were fanboys of your bhavat gita too from wikipedia:
    Serrano had a special place in his ideology for the SS, who, in their quest to recreate the ancient race of Aryan god-men, he thought were above morality and therefore justified, after the example of the anti-humanitarian "detached violence" taught in the Aryo-Hindu Bhagavad Gita.

    I think bhagvat gita is especially written for some Genocidal monsters so that they can sleep peacefully after committing massacres.

    Imagine what if the Emperor Ashoka had read Bhagvat gita at the site of massacres of Kalinga instead of some pacifying Bhuddist teachings , he would have gone on a Killing Spree and we wouldnt have Ashoka chakra in our Flag.

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  79. @Hemanth

    Oppenheimer(a former nazi himself) the creator of Atomic Bomb used to keep a Bhagvat geeta by his side and used to read it for respite from the Guilt of doing the Terrible thing(creating A bomb) , I heard Kalam our own Nuclear weapons hawk is also a fan of B-geeta like you.

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  80. TG, you for sure look exasperated and frustated for lack of a proper direct answer to Hemant. Hence this beating round the bush and away from the topic. You can light a lamp with a math stick and burn a house too...it depends on how you use it. Similarly, you can interpret a book the way you want and take things out of context. Because some hindus, muslims and christians are violent, it doesn't mean the geeta, quran and bible preach it.....

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  81. Yaa iam desperate, by the way what was Hemanths question, Geeta came into picture because he said something like it opened his eyes about Indias greatness.

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  82. Sujay,

    Most of the recent discussion surrounding corrpution is around kick backs or bribes etc etc. None of it seems to be focusing on the the lives that are lost on a daily basis because of corrpution.

    From the corruption involved in procurement of spare parts for MIG 29s to the bribes takes in an RTA office, they all somehow lead to people dying. Think about all the ways people who die in India - there's probably corruption involed in most cases.

    A relative on mine died recently because these doctors kept doing things that never were warrented in the first place. The woman went to the hospital with mild facial paralysis but returned dead. I'm sure everybody here has a hospital related story to tell.

    When someone is murdered, the case never gets solved, leading to more murders. All that the culprit has to do is to lay low for a few days and the police will forget it. The police have better job to do (protecting criminal and politicians).

    Accidents. People die all the time because of bad roads, bad bridges and bad buildings. When that happens, the contractors pay up several people and get over with it. When people die in accidents on roads , corruption is almost always the eventual cause. A few years back a couple of my relatived dies in a road accident. The speeding car that hit the victims motorcycle, its owner and driver are all happily living ever after, without facing any consequence. The accident happened in the first place because someone in the police decided that the best way to slow down traffic on Banglore-Hyd highway was to put bunch of stones on the road every few kilometers.

    My point is that when discussing corruption, we almost talk about transfer of wealth but seem to be constantly oblivious to the fact that people die because of corruption. I just want to throw in my perspective.

    -- Sridhar

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  83. in a state that was 88% hindu,hindus held only 20% of the top administrative posts-(1931 census carolyn M elliott)

    In Telangana andhra settlers- 4% population hold 95% of Head of department posts.

    SO Andhra exploitation much worse than Nizams.

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  84. @tg
    proof plzz

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  85. @tg
    we say proudly that Indians constitute 50% of microsoft/intel employees but crib if a person of a neighbouring district gets a supervisory job in secretariat.
    what a pity

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  86. nenusaitham said...

    I don't where you got the fiction that Indians are 50% of Microsoft/Intel employees.

    Anyway the point is different on various counts. Indians working in the US IT industry are mostly at junior level. Even the few at senior levels can't tweak the system to give unfair benefit to their compatriots.

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  87. we can't compare one bribing for his daily needs with greedy politicians' millions worth scams...does mr chavan really need a flat in adarsh society? is he that poor? its done in pure greed! same as other scams...these idiots making millions of rupees and saving in swiss which makes no use for them either...though i read about black holes and quasars i still believe in god and an apocalypse is not so far!

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  88. @nenusaitham your puny brain must have confused Indian origin Americans with Americans, Our beloved Andhra settlers dont call themselves Andhra origin Telenaganites.

    50%? proof please.

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  89. @All- I'm sorry, I couldn't go through all the posts as it's too long, hence if I'm missin some points or double-postin somethin, then I'm sorry....

    @Sujai- I really like your write-up, esp where you've addressed day-to-day corruption (on lower levels), bribes n so on... Logical, as Lokpal does not directly address these issues... All the same I agree with what Hemanth and few others had to say about Indian religion. It's probably because India civilization started way before others, corruption has also started much earlier. But again, attributing Indian religion to the current scenario is incorrigible... This only shows lack of knowledge about your own culture. Do you know that the so-called English and other European scholars largely revered Indian Vedic texts? Plato was inspired by the Upanishads (the Republic), for Schopanhaeur, it was a way of life, for Max Mueller- a profession (drat!) and the list is endless! I completely agree with you wrt current scenario of the country and people's apparent hypocrisy and mentality! But let's not drag the great Indian culture into this...
    @ true- hindu- Did you know Vyasa, in his Puranas, had mentioned appearances of comets and asteroids? Did you know that it's been astronomically proven that there was an occurence of Comet on the 14th day of Kurukshetra war which was described by Vyasadeva? So it only shows that Indians were ahead of every other country in astronomical study, it's just people like you, who shun the Vedic texts and remain ignorant about the great knowledge and lessons these texts teach us...
    FYI, I don't see or read any Vedic text propagating narrow-minded attitude... they only teach life lessons! They make a good HUMAN BEING out of a person! IN FACT, I'D ATTRIBUTE THE EVIL AND UNCOUTH BEHAVIOR OF INDIAN CITIZENS DUE TO LACK OF READING AND FOLLOWING OF THESE PRICELESS TEXTS! SOME SO-CALLED RATIONAL THINKERS WHO DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THESE TEXTS ACTUALLY CONVEY TRY BEING COOL AND APE THE WESTERNERS! WHILE IT'S IMPORTANT TO ADAPT TO PRODUCTIVE CHANGES IN LIFE, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO NOT LET GO THE GOOD WITHIN...

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  90. @tg and jai,
    the point i wanted to emphasize was not how much% Indians are in microsoft but the fact that you feel happy if an Indian achieves something overseas but within our own country you crib if a seemandhraite gets a good position in ap secretariat

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  91. @nenusaitham:

    Good to see you have given up the fictitious desi % theme.

    I have no problems with andhras or Kannadigas getting good position in any public office in *their* state. My only complaint is against those who used their position in the now dying state of AP to unduly benefit their fellow district/region/caste mates.

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  92. @Nenusaitham

    Pardon me for not feeling Happy about the Brain drain and not feeling proud that 99% of NASA,Microsoft,IBM employees are indians.

    Iam so Naive, i should have felt happy that lakhs of graduates educated in Public funded universities emigrate to serve in US corporations.

    Guess I should also feel Happy and Proud that Andhras are doing so Spectacularly well in Securing all the top govt Posts and totally dominate the IT field in Our State.

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  93. @tg
    "Iam so Naive, i should have felt happy that lakhs of graduates educated in Public funded universities emigrate to serve in US corporations."

    please say this to your telangana nri frends who have made other countries as their permanent residences and yet blame seemandhraites who have done the same in your region

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  94. @jai
    giving jobs based on recommendations and not merit happens in every nook and corner of the country(dont know about other nations much) and i dont think it has anything to do with telangana or samaikyanadhra
    tommoro, after u get a seperate state also, im sure people who are in significant positions will no doubt show favourism to their frend/relaives/acquaintances, etc

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  95. Society can be changed. For example many non changeable things changed when Indira Gandhi declared emergency.

    It is common for political class anywhere across the world to increase their net worth over time but what makes it different in India is that 900 million people have been living in extreme poverty for last 6o years with no hope for the future since it is their money in thousands and thousands of crores that is being socked. The affect is not just on 900 million lower classes but also on middle classes whose attitudes are gradually changing and becoming more accepting of corruption. That is the reason for limited middle class support for Anna and team. This struggle will not succeed unless all sections of the society- teachers, students, artitsts, social workers, factory and office workers, villagers, beggars come out on the streets. Now usually that can happen if the 900 million poverty stricken people had access to media, smart phones and knew how to get connected to social media and thus be informed. Then they could be more aware and could come out on streets like in Iran or Tunisia. But these people are not even aware of their rights what to talk of knowing the correct approach to handle things that matter to them. India has to await a leader that will awaken the masses.

    Also in eradicating corruption we can’t bring down the whole system since mostly everyone in power or position is corrupt, the degrees of corruption vary. Instead of sending everyone to jail and threatening every politician’s future, it might be more prudent to get their cooperation to change things in a creative manner. A more appropriate method would be to give everybody one chance to redeem themselves within a defined time period (everybody deserves a chance) to declare all wrong doings say in last 20 years and if they voluntarily disclose, they be allowed to retain some of the graft money, not asked to pay back what they have spent on their families and take an undertaking not to repeat. The incentive is that they retain their honor, wealth and ability to participate politically. Those who do not declare will loose everything and will have to pay penalty also. As Anna said technology has to be employed so that citizens can file reports via internet. There will be two streams of confidential inputs- a)Informants b)Voluntary disclosures. At least this way nation can recoup trillion s of dollars quickly and channel them for regeneration of India in its villages.

    ReplyDelete
  96. It is common for political class anywhere across the world to increase their net worth over time but what makes it different in India is that 900 million people have been living in extreme poverty for last 6o years with no hope for the future since it is their money in thousands and thousands of crores that is being socked. The affect is not just on 900 million lower classes but also on middle classes whose attitudes are gradually changing and becoming more accepting of corruption. That is the reason for limited middle class support for Anna and team. This struggle will not succeed unless all sections of the society- teachers, students, artitsts, social workers, factory and office workers, villagers, beggars come out on the streets. Now usually that can happen if the 900 million poverty stricken people had access to media, smart phones and knew how to get connected to social media and thus be informed. Then they could be more aware and could come out on streets like in Iran or Tunisia. But these people are not even aware of their rights what to talk of knowing the correct approach to handle things that matter to them. India has to await a leader that will awaken the masses.

    Also in eradicating corruption we can’t bring down the whole system since mostly everyone in power or position is corrupt, the degrees of corruption vary. Instead of sending everyone to jail and threatening every politician’s future, it might be more prudent to get their cooperation to change things in a creative manner. A more appropriate method would be to give everybody one chance to redeem themselves within a defined time period (everybody deserves a chance) to declare all wrong doings say in last 20 years and if they voluntarily disclose, they be allowed to retain some of the graft money, not asked to pay back what they have spent on their families and take an undertaking not to repeat. The incentive is that they retain their honor, wealth and ability to participate politically. Those who do not declare will loose everything and will have to pay penalty also. As Anna said technology has to be employed so that citizens can file reports via internet. There will be two streams of confidential inputs- a)Informants b)Voluntary disclosures. At least this way nation can recoup trillion s of dollars quickly and channel them for regeneration of India in its villages.

    ReplyDelete

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