Where is the Indian Scientific Community when you need them the most?
The saddest part of the current episode of the controversial Ram Sethu project in which religious superstitions won over rationale is the absolute silence from scientific community of
Many people just brush this episode saying it is one of ‘those religious issues’. It is not. The present episode is a perfect example of the challenges we are facing as a nation on the questions of which direction this country is headed.
It is not that I like to trounce down religion for the sake of trouncing it. I am not ridiculing it as long as it is not affecting the mainstream of society. I do not like to discuss science and religion with religious people. I do not like to get into debates just to quench my intellectual curiosity. I am quite OK with religious people practicing their religion while the state is doing its job of running the state. However, when a conflict arises, such as this, where in a religious idea challenges the running of the state, what do we do? The outcome of such conflicts set a precedent for the future outcomes and will decide the direction this country is going to take.
What should one do if in near future some weird interpretation of Koran asks for stopping all rocket launches citing religious books and some mythological documents as evidences?
You set one precedent, and you have to succumb to other religious antics! After a spate of such events, you get
This is to all those scientists hiding behind those curtains, ‘You are scientist ONLY because long ago certain scientific communities in faraway lands fought their battles against superstition, blind belief, witchcraft, religious orthodoxy, etc. If those scientists hid the way you are hiding now, then you wouldn’t be scientists in the first place.’ (And I wouldn’t be an engineer!)
Those faraway lands have created nations striking a balance between state and the chu
Unfortunately, majority of scientists of
Scientific community of the West waged a four hundred years battle to bring rationality into this world. With it came equal rights to woman, rights to different ethnicities, justice to all, etc. And in this fight some people had to give up their lives to defend a stance of letting rationality prevail over blind belief in matters of universal concepts. The West has come to a strike a balance between religion and science after prolonged struggles.
We in
My fight is not against individuals and not against religion. I am not trying to change opinions here. I am just looking for some rational minds out there hoping that we still continue to maintain a modicum of rational thought in this country. Hoping we will be able to strike a balance in this country. I am a bit disappointed! Whenever a conflict arises- such as this, I expect scientific community to speak up. When no such voice is found, people like us have to speak up!
An Indian lady scientist writes:
In order to have a progressive world we need to pick our battles carefully.
I am not sure what is holding the scientific community back? What are they waiting for? The day when
Some Indian scientists believe they should not step in till it is too late when they see actual detriment to society and only when that detriment is tangible.
We should realize that each of these nation-wide conflicts set a precedent on the highest level. All these mega events will encourage many radical elements to impose their blind belief onto the mainstream society. Yesterday, some vandals set fire to a library because it housed a book which had critical remarks on Ram. That’s how things start. Fascism started out of innocuous theories of aggrandizing one’s culture. Fascism was a culmination of many such small events.
The same Indian lady scientist writes:
You take chronology, history and documented facts and evidence and fight faith, you will always find people who will be genuinely hurt and upset.
So, shouldn’t we present facts and evidences in a court of law to counter the faith’s petition citing mythology as evidence? Aren’t scientists getting a bit pusillanimous here? Today it is about Ram Sethu, tomorrow it is about banning a book, and then it is about stopping all genetic engineering, and then it is about establishing superiority of races through such apocryphal evidences! Didn’t we already witness this trend in our history in a different part of the world?
This scientist asks:
Do we really need to offend religious sentiment by questioning mythology?
I agree that there is no need to question mythology. We continue to have Santa Claus, we continue to have Frankenstein, Superman, Spiderman and Harry Potter. We continue to have fables and stories. But imagine a petition in court asking everyone to make big chimneys so that Santa Claus can come into each home? That’s when this mythology comes back to you as blind belief and is knocking on your door!
What should we do when that mythology starts having an influence on the state and its functions?
What do we do if tomorrow some Muslims provide some weird interpretations to stop all scientific activities in
Where does one draw the line? How long will the scientific community of
As a scientist in training, I can't wait to pack my bags, flee to the "west", and leave this sad country to rot back into the dark ages. There's really no point in speaking out, when those who do so will be persecuted.
ReplyDeleteWhen the people in charge are illiterate morons and religious fundamentalists, and are present in such astronomical numbers, IMO, it's quite pointless to "speak out". Best to leave the mess.
Dear Sujai,
ReplyDeleteI have been following your posts on Ram-sethu and I would say you are doing an excellent job. Similar to reservation series, I am sure this would open up eyes of many Indians who are still living in a 'mythical' world. Great job! Keep it up!
- Jayakumar
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI can't wait to pack my bags, flee to the "west",
What about some of us who have come back from the West? :-(
"What about some of us who have come back from the West?"
ReplyDeleteYou can get NRI support for those who flee India. lol
~ Vinod
anon, your scientific training has made you quite adept at determining facts etc. but it hasn't done much good when it comes to working with people and battling illiteracy and ignorance. You expect that everyone should be like you, or that college education = intelligent people.
ReplyDeleteIgnorance is everywhere. In the west, there are "intelligent designers" in big numbers. A majority of Americans can't locate other countries or their own on a map.
First of all, we can learn to accept the fact that there is ignorance, and instead of name-calling ("morons") which accomplishes zilch (as a scientist, you can test that), we can make some efforts to remove that ignorance - with love and humor, instead of with anger and disdain. Education does not mean hubris and pride at our achievements. This is where yoga and breathing exercises help. Also, the road is long - just like it took India almost 100 years to gain freedom from the Brits. One just has to keep trying with patience and not give up - that is, if one believes in the goal.
In our tradition, there is a festival called Diwali. Also called Deepavali - meaning, row of lighted lamps. The theme is "deep se deep jale" - meaning, one lighted lamp lights other lamps. Be that lighted lamp.
All the best.
-Chirkut
I call it the silence of the lambs. Great posts, I wonder where you muster the energy to sustain this kind of frustrating dialogue/ multilogue, but thanks really. Maybe it will get through to a few people. Good luck, Natasha
ReplyDeleteI would also like to see our scientists speaking up against such non-sense, but I can't blame them if they don't. Unlike west, we do not have rule of law in India. A brush with right wing hoodlums guarantees you public humiliation, physical assault, and even death. Killers of Prof. Sabharwal are still loose and all the witnesses in the case have already turned hostile.
ReplyDeleteIt is a goonda-raj. If you can mobilize a hundred hoodlums, you can pretty much get away with anything. It should not come as a surprise that not many people are willing to pay this kind of a price. In the words of Kabir:
"Jo ghar phunke aapna, chale hamaare saath"
Ah Sujai,
ReplyDeleteYou have taken a very important topic which I was planning to take. In fact, I even mentioned about this in one of my Ram Sethu rants. Indian academia has failed us in this. I compare this with the reaction of Western academia to creationism crap and stem cell baloney. I am seriously ashamed of our academia's failure to use this opportunity to kick start a campaign against religious fanaticism, superstitions, etc.
Chirkut, you said
ReplyDelete"You expect that everyone should be like you, or that college education = intelligent people."
No, that's not how I'd equate it. What I do expect however, is that
(i) As an individual, I want to have strong freedoms of speech and expression, no restrictive rules, and flexibility. All of this is sorely lacking in India.
(ii) I'd like to interact with people who are scientifically literate, and actually understand and apply science, rather than meaninglessly memorize words to pass school exams. Based on the current system, scientific education in India is a sorry joke.
(iii) I also want religion to have NO RELEVANCE in the face of scientific evidence when making decisions of national policy. I want something like the First Amendment of the US Constitution, where religion is not "protected".
(iv) I'm sick of endless division based politics on caste/religion/state/whatever. I've had enough of politicians asserting that the "west" is "corrupting, imperialistic and materialistic", that vedic astrology must be taught in universities, and that the vedas are the answer to everything.
"Also, the road is long - just like it took India almost 100 years to gain freedom from the Brits. One just has to keep trying with patience and not give up - that is, if one believes in the goal."
In 100 years, I'll be dead. What good does it do to me to rot in this squalid country, and trying in vain, when I can find what I want in the "west"?
"The theme is "deep se deep jale" - meaning, one lighted lamp lights other lamps. Be that lighted lamp."
In an ocean of darkness, it's not going to make any difference in my lifetime.
O! Sorry about that Krish!
ReplyDeleteActually I saw your post and then didn't think much about it. Then I bumped into a scientist and her comments sparked off this.
BTW, you should still go ahead, more the merrier! As such there are only few out there! :)
Anonymous said -
ReplyDeleteIn 100 years, I'll be dead. What good does it do to me to rot in this squalid country, and trying in vain, when I can find what I want in the "west"?
In an ocean of darkness, it's not going to make any difference in my lifetime.
This is the same short term mentality (let me take care of myself first and let this planet suffer) that resulted in global warming and will wipe off the human race from the face of the earth.
Dude, wake up before it is too late! Start doing small acts that will make a huge impace when put together.
Which scientists are you calling for ? First tell me how many first class scientists in India are ready to agree to the fact that Rama never existed !!!. The Leading scientist who taught me evolution and Gentics offered his morning prayer to lord Rama in the University campus. In India I would say most scientists would agree to the Intelligent Design theory, Do you think such scientists will wage a war ?
ReplyDeleteName: Softy
DeleteTo Anonymous who posted "...the fact that Rama never existed...". First point is, please explain the origin of Ram Sethu in atheistic terms.
Somewhat loosely related:
Genetics/Micro-Biology/Bio Tech. and related sciences CANNOT answer simple questions: living beings like animals and human beings know we exist. Genes, DNA are indicators of life, but they don't have feelings, consciousness etc. Experience, consciousness etc. cannot be created in any software or hardware units. To tell differently, such things cannot be 'reduced' to phsically measurable/observable parameters such as voltage or chemical reactions. So there is nothing wrong with the honourable Scientist when he/she prayed to God [by the by, matter such as stones, dead bodies, DNA cannot pray (and cannot become atheists too!)].
The ancient theory of Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma that a living being takes several lives (rebirth/reincarnation) is being PROVED. You can search for information about this in the Internet (but beware of stupid stuff). All this means the Hindu ancestors were wiser than what a half/quarter knowledged person thinks.
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteI am afraid your reading of history of conflict between science and religion and the role men of "science" played in that battle is deeply flawed. None of the major enlightenment scientists (as opposed to philosophers) ever took up the cudgels against religion or mysticism or superstition. In fact, Newton, perhaps the most influential scientist of all time, spent more time in alchemy, Bible, and occult studies than he did studying "science." He also spent much time trying to extract science from the Bible, what you would presumably call Vedic physics. Keynes dubbed Newton as the last of the magicians rather than the first of the rationalists. Per you argument of 400 yers of struggle, Newton fall about halfway through. Halfway through the struggle, you have the leading light on the side of science spending more time in Biblical astrology than in calculus tells you that it was a struggle in scientists hardly participated.
I dont think scientists are obligated to take part in any political struggle. In the US for instance, physicists, chemists, are not taking out morchas against the teaching of intelligent design. Most serious scientists are deeply involved in their work and have little time or energy for political activism. Nor is it impossible to maintain deeply religious views while being a top notch scientist. I know quite a few.
Your ideas of what constitutes facts and what constitutes proof are highly simplistic. Frankly, these issues are far more nuanced and complicated than you present.
You are right that public policy should not be beholden to religious sentiments of people. Having said that, the Adam's Bridge controversy needs to be seen in the context of Indian politics. If section 153A can circusmscribe free speech on the basis of essentially sentiments and you ban books based on sentiments, you cannot be surprised when hurt sentiments are invoked in the Adam's Bridge case.
Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect.
ReplyDeleteTrouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious dogma or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions. - Dyson
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI would like to see people writing comments and leaving their name. It serves two purposes- one, since there are so many anonymous, it will be clear who is who when I am replying to. Two, it also shows that you take accountability for your statements and actions- which I greatly appreciate.
Would you be happy if I stick to 'people of scientific temperament' instead of 'scientists'. If you see what I wrote, I refer to 'scientific community'.
Since I am aware of the history, the advent of Age Enlightenment, I know that it is not just scientists, but mostly philosophers who have taken the message of science to actually propagate the message of rationality. It is also the people of scientific temperament entering the fields of politics who have influenced the changes.
I am not talking of scientific education or scientific practice, but people of scientific temperament. May be, rewording it would help.
I am afraid your reading of history of conflict between science and religion and the role men of "science" played in that battle is deeply flawed.
Be very afraid! :) I like such statements - 'deeply flawed', heh?
Sorry, I don't have time for discussing the details of each incident and event and how it shaped the world. You look like a smart boy, go figure!
However, I don't think it is deeply flawed.
Each theory, may be the not the theorist himself, had a profound impact- and it came from science.
Even now, we have spokesmen from scientific community- not all of them, but one or two who keep representing them. The present day examples are Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Richard Feynman, Jayant Narlikar, etc. The erstwhile generations had similar people.
I dont think scientists are obligated to take part in any political struggle.
Not at all. But even now certain people of scientific temperament of the West keep writing articles to discuss affairs whenever superstitions overlap with affairs of state.
In the US for instance, physicists, chemists, are not taking out morchas against the teaching of intelligent design.
:)
Are you attacking me just for the sake of intellectual pleasure?
I don't have time for that.
You are now assuming too many things.
I never asked scientist to do morchas! :)
For example, one geologist here has written about Ram Sethu clearing many doubts for all of us. I am talking about such articles, statements, interviews, etc.
Nor is it impossible to maintain deeply religious views while being a top notch scientist. I know quite a few.
No disagreements there. But there is also an ability to separate superstition from such religious views!
You are right that public policy should not be beholden to religious sentiments of people.
That's all I am saying! :)
you ban books based on sentiments,
I am against that too! :)
you cannot be surprised when hurt sentiments are invoked in the Adam's Bridge case.
There's no surprise there! Idiocy is a given fact - one should expect it from Indians, especially those ones who are educated and have learnt the art of sophistry to move between rationality and irrationality citing the areas of grey! :)
I seem to come across those a lot these days, even on this forum! :)
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteYou are keeping people update on the Sethu project. Please see this blog http://venkatnishtala.blogspot.com
Slightly general:
ReplyDeleteSujai,
Used to follow your blog regularly over a year ago, dropped off for several months, and found myself quoting you recently on 3 different things: reservations, Kashmir, something else.
Felt compelled to check back on you. Happy to see your active blogging. However...
Can you please tone down the attitude you seem to take in these last few posts, the "idiots/ idiocy/ do you know anything of science" attacks?
There may be more areas of agreement between you and Anon@9.50_Sep18 than you perhaps perceived, and even disagreements can be conducted with more civility.
To quote Sujai K, how to vent? agree to disagree.
Thank you,
Jai
PS- You have good regular comment input from Darpan, and apparently Chirkut. Enhances your blog. Thanks guys.
Thanks, Jai:
ReplyDeleteWill do. (tone down the attitude)
:)
Well thought out and written. I wrote a post on the same topic. It's interesting to note that we have often written about the same things, although my blog is mostly about a celebration of absurdity as opposed to the beacon of reason and logic yours is :)
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to note that we have often written about the same things, although my blog is mostly about a celebration of absurdity as opposed to the beacon of reason and logic yours is :)
ReplyDeleteThat is right. There is a very thin line between absurdity and logic :-). Absurdity could be easily sugar-coated in logic to sound smart and expert ;-)
Darpan, do you work as a stand-up comedian by any chance? :)
ReplyDelete-Chirkut
One more amazing articles. I had the same question when a quake from Tamilnadu claimed he can make petrol from herbs. The issue got wide publicity when IIT Delhi (I am ashamed to admit) examined and accepted the claim. The guy came with his herbs, and showed the process and produced petrol. and viola, the profs of the chemistry department were dazed. When the scientists of some of the premier institute show this kind of "Scientific Method" to test a hypothesis, what can we expect from common man.
ReplyDeleteTHE SCIENCE OF COSMOLOGY-VEDAS: UNITY IN DIVERSITY
ReplyDeleteCOSMOLOGY WORLD PEACE-KNOWLEDGE EXPANSION (JNANA VIJNANA SAMANVAYAMU)
Dr Vidyardhi Nanduri promotes the Unity in Science and Philosophy through Cosmology Vedas Interlinks
PURPOSE OF INTERLINKS:
1. The Science of Philosophy: Divinity, Vedas, Upanishads, Temples & Yoga
2. Philosophy of Science : Plasmas, Electro-magnetic fields and Cosmology
3. Resource : Reflectors,3-Tier Consciousness, Source, Fields and Flows
4. Noble Cause : Human-Being, Environment, Divine Nature and Harmony
http://cosmologyvedas.blogspot.com/
Vidyardhi Nanduri
Cosmology for World Peace
I was wondering from a long time that if 221B Baker Street can be preserved, why not Ram Sethu/Adam's Bridge?
ReplyDelete