Tuesday, October 16, 2007
23 comments:
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Sujai:
ReplyDeleteHow long will you keep making apologies for islamic extremism?
Make a google search and you will see ten times as many videos spewing venom against hindus. Then why don't we see as many hindu suicide bombers running berserk?
Arguments and counter-arguments of "my extremism is a reaction to your extremism" are nothing new. They have been here for years and looking for the "original cause" is an elusive search.
Why can't we deal with extremism as it is without looking at it from our ideological glasses? What's wrong in treating a criminal as a criminal, even when he happens to be a muslim? Why do we always have to come up with ideological rationalizations of a particular brand of extremism?
Sujai: I used to think that your end goal is right and only your means are not correct. Suffice it to say that - I have started questioning your objectives as well now.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference between those extremists who instigate violence and you who tries to ignite animosity?
very nice documentary. thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you changed the title. Now at least, the title stands in its own right -- not as an apology for islamic extremism.
ReplyDelete...and now we have blasts in Pakistan!
ReplyDeleteWhile naive will continue to link these blasts with jehadism, I am sure, our intellectuals will in time unmask the real connections behind the blasts i.e the Hindus! the Jews!! the West!!! the East!!!!
It is futile to examine Islamic extremism since it does not exist. Whatever we see in the name of Islamic extremism is actually a reaction to something else. If you are faced with jihadism, better divert your attention to root causes that are forcing a persecuted community to blast bombs and take a few lives. Your explanations of Islamic extremism can contain factors from history, geography, economics, politics and everything else except from Islam. The moment you start considering role of Islam in Islamic extremism, you turn into a fascist.
Darpan:
ReplyDeleteSujai is not interested in nuances or a solution to a problem. His agenda is to piss on Hindus and Hinduism, enabled by Dawkins, with least understanding of what Hinduism is, or to separate people's actions from philosophy. If his vision was to condemn all idiocy, as a self-hating Hindu, he wouldn't zero in on Hindus only while ignoring other elements that are equally harmful to India. But then again, there are a lot of Germans who even today feel guilty for what Hitler did. So, I can understand why Sujai feels the way he does. But what's surprising is that Congress gets a free card out-of-jail for what it did in '84, but not BJP. Smells like double standards.
-Chirkut
Chirkut:
ReplyDeleteBut what's surprising is that Congress gets a free card out-of-jail for what it did in '84, but not BJP. Smells like double standards.
This statement is usually thrown by all those who sympathize with fascism coming out of Hindutva forces. Saying, ‘Don’t they do it?’, ‘Doesn’t Pakistan do it?’, ‘Don’t Muslims do it?’ are just mere excuses to carry on and legitimize their own bigoted feelings and sympathies.
Just because some African tribe kills people mercilessly does not mean we should do the same. Saying, ‘Don’t Africans do it?’, will not justify, alleviate or condone your own actions.
If you see the pattern in my blog, you realize that I have not talked too much about past events. I did not write elaborately on Godhra, Gujarat, Babri Masjid, 1984 riots, expect for using them as examples from past to describe events of the present. [I started writing this blog in 2006].
In my article: India bans ads, I write:
A book detailing the riots that happened in New Delhi after the assassination of Indira Gandhi where thousands of Sikhs were killed in a single massacre was banned by the Government of India.
In my article: Peevish Indians, I write:
And please don’t write books that show us the stark truth. We are not used to seeing our flaws in the mirror. Don’t write about anti-Sikh riots of 1984, we will ban it.
You will not see much longer descriptions of either Babri Masjid or Godhra Incident in my blogs JUST because they have happened in the past and I have not dealt with them in detail.
Its not double standards, but your ability not to do thorough research. Your skewed mind is imagining too much. I am glad that at least some of my fellow Indians have some imagination!
This statement is usually thrown by all those who sympathize with fascism coming out of Hindutva forces. Saying, ‘Don’t they do it?’, ‘Doesn’t Pakistan do it?’, ‘Don’t Muslims do it?’ are just mere excuses to carry on and legitimize their own bigoted feelings and sympathies.
ReplyDeleteYou're saying it. I didn't say it.
Just because some African tribe kills people mercilessly does not mean we should do the same. Saying, ‘Don’t Africans do it?’, will not justify, alleviate or condone your own actions.
Again, you're saying it. I didn't say or imply anything like that.
When you write a post on Islam/Muslim extremism, then I'll believe you that you don't have double standards. Unless you think that extremist Indian Muslims don't belong in this country, and are somehow, above any and all criticism. If you consider them your fellow-Indians, then you shouldn't have any problem criticizing them for the same action that you criticize Hindus for, instead of walking on eggshells. Right? ;)
Even when "liberals" do criticize Muslims (e.g. MIM/Taslima Nasreen), it's not in isolation - they almost always cite previous examples of Vadodra or MF Hussain, as if mentioning Muslims and their deeds somehow has to be put in perspective, along the lines of "Don't the Hindus do it?", "Don't they do it?" Sounds familiar? :)
How many posts have you written on Islamic extremism vis-a-vis Hindu extremism? Both are cases of extremist acts, and if you are against extremism, then religion or who did it to whom shouldn't matter - both Hindu and Islamic extremist acts are harmful to India. And that tells me you're prejudiced and biased - clear and simple.
-Chirkut
I agree with Chirkut.
ReplyDeletePeople fighting against communalism often end up in the trap of fighting only a particular brand of communalism and thus loose credibility. Those fighting against islamic communalism tend to treat hindu communalism with kid gloves. Similarly, those fighting against hindu communalism end up searching for soft rationalizations for islamic communalism.
For example, this blog is doing an excellent job of exposing hindu communalism, however, it has consistently tried to downplay the threat of islamic communalism. The most blatant example of this tendency was visible sometime back in the title of one video :"hindu fascism: making of a muslim terrorist". As if hindu fascism was justification for muslim terrorism but not the vice versa - little realizing that islamic terrorism is a global threat today not restricted to India alone. Fortunately, somebody pointed this out and the blogger modified the title.
Honest voices fighting against communalism are few and rare. People are either against hindu communalism or muslim communalism but not against communalism as such. It is difficult to be completely objective.
Chirkut,
ReplyDeleteWhat Sujai writes is entirely his wish. Even if he writes every post on Hindu Facism (hypothetically, of course), you can't draw the conclusion that he doesn't feel the same way about Islamic extremism.
IMO, your comments simply seem to attack Suaji of his credibility, while completely missing (or even acknowledging) the point of his blog post.
If you want to write about Islamic extremism, do so. You have plenty of opportunity if you look around. However, it's crazy to "demand" an author to cover stories equally on his/her personal blog. Sujai can write on whatever he wishes. If you don't like it, too bad.
Dear Anon:
ReplyDeletePlease read my comment one more time. Nowhere did I demand that Sujai write about Islamic extremism. I was simply pointing out a pattern that I observed. Reading his posts, it comes across as if he is against extremism, and not against a specific extremism. If you're not familiar with the concept, it's called hypocrisy and by now, a very popular tactic of pseudo-seculars.
And why are you getting your panties in a twist over my comment on what Sujai writes? As long as there are comments on his blog, I and others are free to comment on what Sujai (or someone else) writes, without name-calling and ad hominem attacks. If Sujai wants to see only comments that praise him and not point out the fallacy of his stand, then maybe he should have some kind of test before people comment, or shut down the comment section.
-Chirkut
Dear Anon:
ReplyDeleteHere's my point - when one criticizes an action (for example, killing of innocents due to religious extremism) while wedded to an ideology (left or right wing), one is bound to be blind to actions by what he considers his people, i.e. people of the same ideology and/or religion.
When we are equally concerned at an innocent life being snuffed out - whether in Kashmir or Gujarat, whether Hindu, Muslim or atheist - then we can claim to be for humanity and truly secular. Till then, it's all intellectual and ideological games. And the games will go on - pseudo-secular & hypocritical actions enraging religionists into shifting right, and religionist justifications enraging pseudo-seculars to move further left, and the feedback loop is complete - both of them feeding off of each other. I prefer not to be part of this loop, and I don't like to fly, so have no need for wings.
-Chirkut
Chirkut,
ReplyDeleteAnd why are you getting your panties in a twist over my comment on what Sujai writes? As long as there are comments on his blog, I and others are free to comment on what Sujai (or someone else) writes,
Why do you think that I'm getting my "panties" in a twist? I can assure you, I'm not. I know that you're free to comment on whatever you want, as long as Sujai thinks it's appropriate. Just as you are free to comment on Sujai's posting pattern, I believe I'm free to comment on yours. Please note that, I'm not name calling or attacking you. I'm simply criticizing the contents of your comments (not you), because I think they're (please note, I mean your comments, not you!) stupid.
If you're not familiar with the concept, it's called hypocrisy and by now, a very popular tactic of pseudo-seculars.
When we are equally concerned at an innocent life being snuffed out - whether in Kashmir or Gujarat, whether Hindu, Muslim or atheist - then we can claim to be for humanity and truly secular.
This is an example of why, in my opinion your comments are stupid. You're claiming that Sujai is somehow not equally concerned about an innocent life being snuffed out (and is being hypocritical), just because you think that he doesn't blog on it?? IMO, that's an absurd and laughable claim because, as I pointed out, what Sujai blogs on is entirely his wish. He may feel strongly about a life snuffed out in Kashmir, but he may simply decide not to blog on it. That's his wish.
Dear Anon:
ReplyDeleteThanks for not indulging into ad hominem attack and spelling it out so clearly. :) ;)
You're claiming that Sujai is somehow not equally concerned about an innocent life being snuffed out (and is being hypocritical), just because you think that he doesn't blog on it?? IMO, that's an absurd and laughable claim because, as I pointed out, what Sujai blogs on is entirely his wish.
And you get an A+ for being clever, and using logic. :)
As for my comment being stupid or not, I'll leave it up to each one of us to really look into our hearts and find if we really feel the same way about an innocent Hindu vis-a-vis Muslim dying, selective outrage, or whether we look at incidents like these through our religious/ political/ideological lens or not. Don't have anything more to say on this subject.
-Chirkut
Everything that is shown here is only done by the politicians, Why are you connecting it to hinduism. Don't muslims do it? You are a true extremist?
ReplyDeleteIndia is the only country, and hinduism is the only religion that has accepted every other religion. We dont(like jehad) teach that the one who is not of our religion shoulad be killed.
You have only in case of hindus that a bomb blast taking place in a temple(Sankatmochan-varanasi) but people still keeping patience. If it would have been a mob there would have been blasts all over India. Many of the hindu pandits being killed in Kashmir? what abt them?
Why people when trying to show secularism tend to unfavour Hinduism. Hinduism itself is secularism, accepting the good thing of others is always tought in this religion. Why even award winning movies like Parzania try to show hindus wrong, in the riots the other party is also involved to the same extent.
It is Indians who have not declared any official religion for the country. We have our president Mr. Kalam and we love all khans as actors, who says we r against islamism.
You wanna say that terrorism is because of hinduism, how many time a hindu child follows terrorism because of riots. You will be shocked to know that when I was young, a hurd of muslims came near to our house in Mumbai 1992 riots and were about to burn our house, but they had a doubt if it was a hindu family or not and that is why left. Near my house in I always here the mob preachings that "We have to save our religion, and whoever comes inbetween will to be butchered."
Now would you give any explaination for that? You should have chosen the video that shows wrong sides of both the religions or should not have exposed any religion. Why a particular religion is targetted and other people are shown innocent. If talk of secularism, first make your self secular.
Everything that is shown here is only done by the politicians, Why are you connecting it to hinduism. Don't muslims do it? You are a true extremist?
ReplyDeleteIndia is the only country, and hinduism is the only religion that has accepted every other religion. We dont(like jehad) teach that the one who is not of our religion shoulad be killed.
You have only in case of hindus that a bomb blast taking place in a temple(Sankatmochan-varanasi) but people still keeping patience. If it would have been a mob there would have been blasts all over India. Many of the hindu pandits being killed in Kashmir? what abt them?
Why people when trying to show secularism tend to unfavour Hinduism. Hinduism itself is secularism, accepting the good thing of others is always tought in this religion. Why even award winning movies like Parzania try to show hindus wrong, in the riots the other party is also involved to the same extent.
It is Indians who have not declared any official religion for the country. We have our president Mr. Kalam and we love all khans as actors, who says we r against islamism.
You wanna say that terrorism is because of hinduism, how many time a hindu child follows terrorism because of riots. You will be shocked to know that when I was young, a hurd of muslims came near to our house in Mumbai 1992 riots and were about to burn our house, but they had a doubt if it was a hindu family or not and that is why left. Near my house in I always here the mob preachings that "We have to save our religion, and whoever comes inbetween will to be butchered."
Now would you give any explaination for that? You should have chosen the video that shows wrong sides of both the religions or should not have exposed any religion. Why a particular religion is targetted and other people are shown innocent. If talk of secularism, first make your self secular.
Very touching video. Good documentary.
ReplyDeleteThe basic problem is of lack of law and order, and security. When the state fails to protect its citizens and deliver justice, there are terrible results. Common people go on rampages and mass killings without fear. (In the case shown in the video the state encouraged one group to butcher another)
People start taking law in their own hands, as an act of hate, or for revenge, or for self-protection.
Extremism and violence of any kind by any community should NOT BE TOLERATED AT ALL. It should be snuffed out everywhere with an iron hand. However, along with that, people must critically analyze the REASONS for the violence, and try to nip the problem at the bud.
The rise of any kind of extremism in India is very dangerous, be it Hindu or Sikh or Muslim.
I wish to present one small analysis based on my observations.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, violence (religious) has three major causes.
Firstly, excessive pride in one's own religion; "My religion is superior to the others and thus the inferiors should be humiliated, exterminated."
This is further driven by the second reason, that is blind following of the religious edicts by the believers - like in Islam and Christianity - "convert the Kufr and the pagan heathens and save their souls!"
People don't realize that when Islam and Christianity were in their nascent stage, they needed motivation, impetus and violent zeal to survive and spread against the existing school of thoughts which were only too eager to destroy the babies. Unfortunately, that zeal is being carried over till today, with the dream goal of uniting the whole world under one religion (esp. Islam - the "Ummah").
That leads to the third reason, which I think is the major cause for the rise in "Hindu Fascism". That is SELF PROTECTION and SURVIVAL. I think many Hindus feel threatened and insecure about Hinduism and it's future. Any living creature that is threatened will fight back in defence.
Another sub-reason could be as an outburst against generations of oppression and insults. "Pressure cooker resentment and anger." This is one reason many Hindu hardliners give to justify the recent excesses.
RATIONAL THOUGHT, COMPASSION and TOLERANCE are a key to ending this violence. Islam needs a Renaissance and a Reformation, and along with that Hindus need to "chill out", and improve their own religion, by shunning the caste system, astrology, excessive rituals, superstitions and a negative, fatalistic attitude.
Incidentally, the religion which has the least problems and is least in the news is Buddhism, which I am taking an active interest in. Go Zen!!
Love and peace to all.
Now we have another blast in Jaipur!
ReplyDeleteReaders on this forum would have noticed that Sujai made grand claims of Hindu Fascism based on one incident, which was later found to be related with Quaranic terrorism.
After that there have been many many incidents of clear Quarnic terrorism including todays blasts at Jaipur. However, secularly speaking none of these can be called Islamic Fascism, which BTW does not exist.
You need to offer public apology for justifying terrorism.
You need to offer public apology for justifying terrorism.
ReplyDeleteI never justified terrorism in any form.
Like I said in my posts, I support Telangana. Small nations are coming together in the European Union to have more power.
ReplyDeleteAllowing everybody who wants a state to have a little state will lead to CHAOS. Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan are bleeding. Let's not create unnecessary walls and divisions between people to grab political power. Let it be easy for people to move around and live wherever they so choose. As for Hinduism, hundreds of years of British and Mughal rule could not eliminate it. For every 1 "intellectual terrorist" there are 10 good people ready to fight in response.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/4nu6j
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/5vqjb
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/4o3pp
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/5vqno
INDIA: THE MOTHER OF WORLD CIVILIZATION:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/66579
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/66h6v
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/6ce5t
In one word, the ideal of Vedanta is to know man as he really is, and this is its message, that if you cannot worship your brother man, the manifested God, how can you worship a God who is unmanifested?
If you are really pure, how do you see the impure? For what is within, is without. We cannot see impurity without having it inside ourselves. This is one of the practical sides of Vedanta, and I hope that we shall all try to carry it into our lives.
Doing good to others is virtue (dharma); injuring others is sin. Strength and manliness are virtue; weakness and cowardice are sin. Independence is virtue; dependence is sin. Loving others is virtue; hating others is sin. Faith in God and in one's own Self is virtue; doubt is sin.
The definition of God and man: Man is an infinite circle whose circumference is nowhere, but the centre is located in one spot; and God is an infinite circle whose circumference is nowhere, but whose centre is everywhere.
traigunya-vishaya vedah / nistraigunyo bhavarjuna
nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho / niryoga-kshema atmavan
veda---the Vedic; vishaya---subject matter; (is) trai-gunya---pertaining to the modes of material nature; bhava---be; nistraigunyah---beyond the three modes; nirdvandvah---be free from duality; (and) nitya-sattva-sthah--- situated in pure goodness or spiritual existence; (be) niryoga-kshemah---detached from the tendency to preserve and acquire; atma-van---and be endowed with intelligence given by Me.
O Arjuna, rise above the modes described in the Vedas and become established in nirguna-tattva (nirgun - niryog - without any trait). Be free from all dualities such as honour and dishonour, and do not worry about profit and loss. Become situated in shuddha-sattva by using the intelligence awarded by Me.
Isha Upanishad:
ReplyDeleteAndham tamah pravisanti ye vidyam upasate ll
Tato bhuya iva te tamo ya u vidyayam ratah ll
(They who worship ignorance enter into darkness
And they who worship knowledge enter into greater darkness)
Knowledge is memory of the past. From the recent past, a split second ago, or years back. Brahman, the Ultimate Reality, is never a memory, never a thing of the past. It is the living present, the eternal, immediate present, and can never be comprehended by knowledge, which has only the past as reference.
He also warned India that the liberation of the erstwhile state of Hyderabad was also on the JuD's agenda.
ReplyDeletehttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/JuD-chief-Hafiz-Saeed-threatens-jehad-over-JK-/articleshow/5540016.cms
Please understand, extreme left atheist forces, along with Islamic fascists want to destroy Andhra Pradesh (includes Telangana).