Tuesday, July 04, 2006

Vedas and Science

The process of appreciating Vedas has been interesting for me. At one time, I denounced every vague statement and intended connotation in Vedas equating them with mythology, fantasy and poetry. But as I take a second look at them now, they seem to produce an awe and admiration for all those wise men who wrote them. I think- ‘If only we could think the way they have thought’. I have to admit though that this admiration is confined to the wise men who wrote these books, but I definitely do not equate Vedas with any faculty of Science.

The modern physics which took a divergent path from many theological philosophies around 16th Century went on an accelerated path of evolution in the last 400 years and has now started to give room to some philosophical interpretations though not necessarily based on theology. There is a sense of awe for certain innate and as well apparent paradoxes in nature and the crux of this bafflement in modern physics is actually an argument presented in Vedas, that the Universe is continuous and a single entity, including the men and women residing in it, and that whatever we see or perceive of Nature as independent and separate is nothing but an illusion created by the mind of the man (maya?). 

This is what many modern physicists might have felt upon the advent of Quantum Theory, which made even Albert Einstein utter-"God does not play dice with the Universe". Well, to his disappointment, it turns out that matter and force and all other things that we know do not have any ‘real’ existence at the sub-atomic levels. Their existence is governed by probability and characterized by their relationships and interconnection to the others. Vedas that say- ‘It moves, it moves not, it exists, it exist not’, are synonymous to the thoughts of these scientists who were looking at the behaviors of sub-atomic particles of an atom. The ‘real’ matter and forces could very well be just a simple case of a continuous universe and valid only in a narrow frame of observation which the man is used to.

For many Indians and Indophiles, Vedas, in revelation of the above observations of scientists, actually appear to be a compendium of the ultimate results that Modern Science obtained after a rigorous and methodical search spanning thousands of years. It’s as if, to get to the same conclusions, scientists and Indian mystics have taken different paths. If that is the case, the mystics seem to have come to the same conclusion almost two thousand years ahead of the scientists. Wow! This is so nice and convenient. It makes many Indians proud of their own ancestry. Its as if, for all that we missed during scientific and industrial revolutions of Europe and US between 16th and 19th century we already made up thousands of years ago - and it is all well documented in our Vedas. 

For many vedic scholars, astrologists, believers of great Indian ancestry, this turns out to be a convenient exercise to showcase how these great books reveal many great truths. They push this argument further and try to dig out different interpretations and meanings to these texts and try to find out solutions to all modern day problems. Since we as Indians couldn’t come up with inventions or discoveries in the last thousand years, we take solace in our old Vedas and keep ourselves happy. For everything that Modern Science has invented there seems to be some answer, solution or reference in our Vedas. And at a first glance, it does seem to be true- Vedas do have a collection of many references (which could be equated to the results of Modern Science). 

What is important, though completely ignored by most proponents of Vedas, is the path that was taken to arrive at those conclusions. Modern Science is directly responsible for the progress in technology, medicine, engineering and many other fields that we have seen in the last thousand years, while Vedas are confined to the spiritual and complex minds of few people who seem to have seen the essence in its entirety but are unable to articulate it to understanding of common man. Some claim they understand, but unfortunately their attempts to teach us all their understanding is not understood by others. This is where the lucidity, clarity and rigor of Science differ from arcane, vague and allegorical Vedas. 

Science throws out clear theories (based on commonly agreed axioms) which can be taken up by anyone and reach the same conclusions, while Vedas do not have any such theories; and to get to the same conclusion, one has to rely on leaps of faith, intuition and supposedly some revelations.

How much ever we like to believe, Vedas do not seem to give us the same tools to work with to arrive at the conclusions and deductions written in those books. For all practical purposes, Vedas, with its deductions which are mystical, have to considered as good books of aphorisms and truisms and nothing more. Vedas may contain allegorical and fantastic descriptions of supposed flight, atomic theory and other modern concepts, but we do not know whether they are the conclusions after a thorough research or mere hypothesis or just whimsical conundrums. 

Though they appear to carry these profound truths they cannot be used in a rational and intellectual discussion because they do not support their statements with valid, accepted and rigorous proofs and methods. Some may dismiss this argument saying that eastern way of arriving at a truth is different from western methods, but even this argument is hollow, since no practical path is described on how to arrive at these truths. We can appreciate such truths only when we reach the same conclusion on our own taking up the path of Science. Some would ask us to accept these results out of pure faith but then this would make it more of a religion than science. 

If Vedas do contain reference to Atomic Bomb or Flight or Laser Beam or Wireless Technology, they do not have any close semblance with scientific argument. We can’t take up a book of Vedas and build an Airplane. For all practical purposes, these texts could be as fictitious as Tolkien’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ with descriptions of middle earth and his fire-breathing-dragons. May be, two thousands years from now someone will open this book and believe that we actually had teleporting, immortality and levitation. It may turn out that Vedas are mythological stories just like Greek and Roman mythologies with a dose of philosophy. My sense of awe for Vedas is akin to what I have for other works of fiction, ‘Time Machine’ from HG Wells, or ‘Matrix; from Wachowski Brothers. 

According to me, Vedas for all their mysteriousness can be an interesting and mysterious read but can never substitute or find itself close to any department of Science.

[This is an updated and edited version from an article I wrote in May 1998]

Update:

Arunn has an excellent criticism of such pseudo-scientific explanation of one of the Mantras. Its funny that one Dr. Tanmaya talks about the sound of Galaxies and Planets whizzing past in space and compares it with sound generated when a fan rotates.

Update: 7 Sep 2006


71 comments:

  1. A nice and well article there.

    Take a look here, for something similar that could be of interest to you.

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  2. Thanks for adding the link! I have done the same for yours, at my blog...;)

    BTW, I meant to type "well written article" in my earlier comment. Sorry for the missing "written"...

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  3. My impression is that Vedas were composed by several people (may be some of them women) over a long period. There are some nice thoughts, poetry and they sound good. But there are also some inane stanzas of people paraising kings for various gifts. It is possible that there are some insights about some sounds and the use of sounds and repetitions. One is impressed by various systemizations done by ancient Indians (for example music, dance etc) but these were later than Vedas. It could be there were some Einsteins among them; I vaguely remember that Einstein believed in the power of abstract thought. It could me some realized that knowledge was power, kept these to themselves and slowly distorted them to their advantage. I will await further research to see what is in them. Just as in some traditional knowledge, there may be some good stuff. But many commentaries I used to hear did not make much sense to me. There are too many other things that I want to read which seem understandable and I do not think that I want to spend time on Vedas.
    swarup

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  4. A throrough study shows how Vedanta( not Vedas!) and Modern science leads to the same certitude (cit) can be found in Dr. Nataraja Gurus magnum-opus " The Integrated Science of the Absolute"

    http://www.advaitavedanta.co.uk/content/view/23/0/

    Also see the discussion on Einsteins Relativity

    http://advaitavedanta.co.uk/content/view/43/0/

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  5. Well actually most Vedantic Text, such as Patanjali's Raja Yoga, do lay out clear steps towards achieving the goal of spiritual realization. The revelations about the nature of the universe are mere side products of working towards this goal. Having read texts of Gita & Raja Yoga, they don't seem archaic to me at all- neither mystic nor mysterious. On the contrary they provide immense insight into the nature of man, and some solid practical advice and wisdom.

    Also, Vedanta's goal was never to master nature, it was the path to mastering yourself. So if they don't tell us how to build planes, it's because that wasn't their goal in the first place.

    The path to Vedanta is way way tougher than that of modern science. Which is perhaps why it’s 2000 years ahead of our times; and also why science has seen wider impact.

    I do think that Indians should be proud of their ancestry, and be willing to explore and hold it up. The west is still looking for Atlantis, in the hope of finding the secrets and lessons of their past—why are we not so driven to explore our ancient history and uncover lessons for our now? The last post of Web 2.0 carried a column on how big pharmaceutical giants are selling drugs made from snake venom (pg 32). Rik Deitsch, CEO of Nutra Pharma is quoted as saying: “Just because something kills you at high doses doesn’t mean it can’t help you at lower doses.” That’s the exact principle homeopathy works on—and it’s been dismissed by modern scientists for close to a century now. Drawing a simile, perhaps it’s time we stopped dismissing Ayurveda as alternative medicine and brought it into mainstream medicine.

    But in the same breath, I would also like to say that we need to work on our present—earning a place in the future of mankind; making our own claim to fame, instead of counting back into the past.

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  6. Thats a very balanced rational article. It always surprised me how christianity and hinduism hav shown completely different attitudes to science.

    Theres christianity which was in direct conflict with science throughout the middle ages and still continues to. Church has had a problem with every major scientific discovery... planetary motion, evolution, big bang or i beleive it even prclaimed the arabic numerals to be a work of devil and wanted people to use roman numerals.

    And then theres hinduism, which claims the existence of every scientific discovery in the Vedas. I read some article which claims vedas has a reference to e=mc^2. But obviously nobody interprets them before the scientists struggle and give a valid proof.

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  7. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vimanas.htm#menu

    AND

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/esp_vimanas_8.htm#Flying%20High

    Here are two links relevan to the subject.

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  8. Nice post you got here..

    -we don't know whether it's science or not in the way we understand it now, it's good philosophy nevertheless..

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  9. I am working on Mapping Vedas to Modern Science. If you observe , you will notice the shallowness of modern science and depth of knowledge in Vedas

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  10. Knowledge can be simply classified into 2 categories:
    1) One that can be understood,
    2) One that cannot be understood.
    In other words:
    1) One that is empirical,
    2) One that is above empirical

    The above categories need not be given perspectives and
    interpretations; because they carry the same meaning for all.
    When the above; being the case; tools that have to be used to
    for each of the above is obviously different.

    Based on this every aspect of human life is knowledge itself;
    even though we gain some of these unconsiously. So whether we
    debate or discuss or propagate or preach; the above categorisation
    is relevant.

    One should admit that this kind of a categorization could lead to
    possibilities where people would debate about their practical applications.
    True !! But then the truth is: There are things which we know and understand;
    there are things which we know and dont understand and there are things which we
    dont know and dont understand. So the above classification seems suitable.

    Referring to the second category; it is clear that it is not possible
    for us to grasp or interpret or understand things which are above empirical using the instruments which are empirical (i admit there can be exceptions in rare cases).
    So not being able to appreciate these truths because of one's inability shouldnt be misunderstood as absence of proof of existense of such knowledge.


    A book when newly written by a person; needs to be understood
    from that person's perspective. Otherwise; it would not be possible
    to understand what the person it trying to communicate.
    Exactly in a similar way; the Vedas have an author. If the purpose of having invented the Vedas is understood then the author's communication has been successful. So it wouldnt be right to interpret whether the Vedas contain researched material, hypotheses or conundrums
    without understanding what the author wants to communicate.

    Taking another ex: A person who is not a computer literate; might be writing letters to his distant relative. I go to him and say; hey...there is a telephone on which
    you could hear the voice of your relative; there is a computer on which you can see him; even though he is thousands of miles away.
    At first instance he wouldnt believe this. He might even laugh or get scared of that; calling it black magic !! So this would create a closed mind; i.e.
    he wouldnt be open to discussing that. But if he thinks of a possibility; say; yes...that could be possible; then he would be open to exploring it. That is when he would possibly find the right people to explain this to him.

    Based on the above arguments it wouldnt be right to classify the Vedas as fictitious or myth because one doesnt grasp or understand its content and application or even the purpose why they were written or what the author wants to communicate.

    As for Science it could come under the first category because everyone understands them and is able to apply it. Need i say more about it ??????? :-)

    Thanx for ur patience !!

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  11. Your arguments in regards to Vedas seems right. You definitely can not build an airplane by following Vedas. But it is also amazing that the stupid Hindus came up with the same answers in regards to the findings of today's New Physics and advanced Astronomy thousands of years ago. How is that possible - please explain. In my opinion (another asshole) a thorough research in this regards is necessary primarily by the Hindus becasuse they may be the true descendents of the Atlantis race that the Europeans are so proud of.

    Amal.

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    Replies
    1. Why did you use the term stupid Hindus, you stupid?

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  12. The state of all religious books are these days. They are scientifically rejected, yet some people follow them blindly. Some pseudo-scientists are projecting these age-old books as science. alas!!

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  13. Thanks for that article.

    Vedas actually describe five different flying machines if I am right. But they do not define any of them and you can't go about building one. But they do tell you how to operate them!? There is a missing link some where lost possibly for ever.

    The vedic maths also falls under the same scale. They say Bhaskara has proposed and 'knew' that earth goes around the sun. But knows that it is the shadow of the moon that is causing the solar eclipse, etc. But then why was it, that these were never implemented in the religious understandings? There is something wrong here. there is a possibility that the original vedas was much different.

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  14. well we can't say that there no practical evidences,for the only reason that we can't understand them. see,we can't see radio waves or gamma rays means we can't say that they don't exist.To know that it exists we hvae to use certain detectors ,which are accessories to detect the invisble radio waves .Likewise to detect that vedas has something which the modern science can't imagine means we have to search for the thing reaveling the same . But ,honestly none of us are well versed in the vedic language, sanskrit.

    To be clear there is a vedic book by name 'YANTRASARVASVA' written by the great astronomer , the areo-space engineer, Saint Bhardwaja Maharishi in 8th century B.C.
    In that he describes the method to construct nearly 500 various variety of airplanes. THIS ALSO INCLUDES THE FORMULAS FOR INTER STELLAR AND INTERPLANETERY TRAVELLING VECHICLES.

    Cheers,
    Abi.

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  15. I have one examples ,,,If you all know , we have Pitra paksh ....and somewhere in our vedantas its mention that our pitras(forefathers) lives at same level near moon , and they have one day equals to fortnight ....And here is Modern science which later prooved that on moon one day equals fornight .... So , Blogger e=mc^2...u r hollow ,,,not vedantas...

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  16. Anon said:

    "I have one examples ,,,If you all know , we have Pitra paksh ....and somewhere in our vedantas its mention that our pitras(forefathers) lives at same level near moon , and they have one day equals to fortnight ....And here is Modern science which later prooved that on moon one day equals fornight .... So , Blogger e=mc^2...u r hollow ,,,not vedantas..."

    You, sir, are a complete idiot. You do not have a frigging clue either of vedanta or of science.

    To begin with, vedanta nowhere talks about pitras and their abodes. That stuff is covered in smritis and puranas, not vedanta. Vedanta talks about issues of consciousness.

    Secondly, about the exact location of pitra-lok, you have at least a dozen different answers in different smritis and puranas. You are free to take your pick as per your convenience.

    And thirdly, nowhere science has proved that moon's one day equals one fortnight. FYI, moon's one day equals one sidereal moon month and that too approximately, not exactly.

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  17. Being a student of modern(read western) science, I was very sceptical and simply rejected these to be a mere myths. But interestingly after some research, I am awed by the degree of accuracy of certain events described. Agreed it can still be some random thinking philospher or whatever, but to imagine to such a degree of accuracy is very difficult(if not impossible).

    The case in point is the description of a weapon which exactly matches the modern day Nukes. Now to bring some more perspective, what is the cradle of modern science, as in the true stimulus. World War II, Germany!!!
    Hitler, the person we love to hate, proclaimed himself as Aryan and tried to conquer the entire world. Did he think he found something which others cannot think of. If some of the sources are to be beleived, he constantly had a team of scholars visiting India and parts of Tibet to understand the so-called age old scriptures(possibly Vedas).

    I am neither supporting nor am I completely rejecting it. But what we need to do is donate some more time to understand what they actually mean. I can understand few things to be co-incident.

    The article makes a valid point in that there are tons of things which are mentioned in Vedas, how do you corroborate them? There is definitely missing links....like Vedic Mathematics which is not just a fluke as it can be easily implemented to do any calculations within a fraction of time required using modern method.

    Hoping they had Stock Markets at that time...... ;)

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  18. Nice article. But IMHO, if we look at it this way..somebody was talking about building airplanes with the vedas..they definitely don't teach us how to build a craft, but what it may have done is to have taught you to build your mind to be able to achieve the feat of flying like the mere act of walking or swimming.
    May be our minds are capable of much more and what if these ancient scripts are attempting to describe techniques that seem like a fantasy today, if only we can interpret them right.
    After all our mind is far more powerful and somehow the ancient cultures of the world knew how to tap into it..which unfortunately we don't do in today's world, thus, increasing our dependence on external scientific miracles.....just my 2 cents.

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  19. why people r criticizing vedas nowdays check this link www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Articles/Scripture/Veda.html - 16k -

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  20. kamalkant rajput:
    Thanks for the link.

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  21. Well guys, I would like to add my argument on the table pro Vedas.

    There is this new theory about the vibratory nature of matter, which in essence confirms with formulas what Vedas express in words.

    If interested, you can find more information at: http://holyscience.wordpress.com/in-the-beginning-was-the-vibration/

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  22. I wish to add to this discussion the following thoughts:

    Proofs, well, there are, in science, for many statements, they are based on certain mathematical facts/theorems, and they (proofs) are valid under conditions specified in each case.

    And there are many phenomena, for which there are not even the above type of proofs-under-conditions available, as yet, perhaps, never at any time to come. We are living in a world of three dimensions which floats over another dimension, namely, space, the fourth.

    Now I have seen that it is quite conceivable, through extended logic and extrapolation, that even the four dimensional universe is not the ultimate of reality, a fifth, a sixth, and so on, upto, so far, an eleventh dimension is also logically obtainable. [How about watching, in this context, the brief, insightful video at : www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO0kikKcjuM and also reading thru the article at feynman.physics.lsa.umich.edu/.../1984%20-%20The%20Eleven%20Dimensions%20of%20Reality.pdf and/or the one at www.unishivaji.ac.in/shivsandesh/archive/vol5jan06/DrSTNavare_Paper.pdf ? ] I have somewhere read, but unfortunately do not have even a faint idea of the source now] that eventually, we would end up with the theoretical possibility of an infinite-dimensioned reality.

    And also note that individual (human) consciousness, as strongly argued by Erwin Schrodinger, is inextricably connected to a universal consciousness, which alone can explain certain phenomena, for ex., the phenomenon of any particle in our material universe behaving as though it is conscious of the movement and action of every other particle, and such that the relativity and quantum laws, including the postulated and 'observed' fact of speed of light being the maximum attainable for all matter. Thus, it may be suspected that what we have been studying so far through advanced mathematics, astrophysics, particle physics, and even biological sciences, is no more than just a primitive phase of the grand scheme of an Infinite Consciousness. [Maybe there are super-intelligent beings out there, in other universes than ours, which, with more senses of perception, and equipped infinitely better than we humans are, to study and even observe, thesse higher dimensions of reality.]

    Terms such as Consciousness, Intelligent Design, etc., have already come into the field of latest science, as human brains seem to have nearly exhausted, nein, turned up a lot, lot of, the know-how And they are treading on to an area of know-why. Whats that one? Gravity is the force that pulls the apple from the tree, that is the how. Why should gravity pull it, and act only in certain but not all aqreas, it is the why. This latter part is also engaging the super brains of our age. Please do some Google search with, say, the words 'science consciousness time eleventh dimension' and in another search with the words plus Vedas. For each of these two searches, a few hundred thousand or million sites/pages will be available to you for making your selection, study and inference/conclusion.

    But even a five dimensional world is NOT practically 'observable', given our sensory perceptions aided by mathematical, physical, and other tools, though, as just stated, it is conceivable. What do you do then with our science,the way we have nurtured and grown it so far, and even the 'circularity' unknowingly occurring in our arguments for 'proofs', and why should we not dig up old wisdom buried under gushes of new efforrts of brains of only the 17th to 20th century period? Our earth, our universe, and the cosmos, are ageless. What great wisdom it is to 'assume', unwittingly, that what is the 'latest' in our own earth with beings which are creating more problems without having the knowledge to solve even the existing ones, especially in the fields of thought, emotion and feeling ? We have not been able to tread with our inadequately developed science into these areas, although there are so many speculations.

    Turning to the Vedas comprising the Purva and Uttara Mimamsa-s, or the Karma and Jnana Kanda-s, of which the Sastras and the Puranas are more like explanatory branches of human thought of yore, there is a lot of the declaration and the actual instances of the truth of universal consciousness. But there is no 'proof'. But the greatest scientists are looking at these declarations and instances,
    to derive that necessary confidence that motivate them to further exploration of consciousness at the individual and universal levels. They may get more striking and spectacular instances and ramifications of consciousness, and yet not get at 'proofs' of the type we are accustomed to, in observational and experimental sciences. Einstein's 'thought experiments' were one great step forward, to turn Newton's theories on their head, and go on to establish the very limited applicability of his gravity. Now even gravity is coming under hammer blow of more advanced science, and the attempt is to come up with other ideas. You may do online research of your own using a selection of the G results I suggested, and perhaps questions and not necessarily answers; observable or conceivable facts, and not provable ones - will appear to you at the end of your study, I guess, be the way to look at reality. Reality is a pathless land, to use a modified statement after J Krishnamurti, and we may have to draw maximum bliss and happiness out of just treading a few of the different paths, and exhaust our little span of living this material existence with soul and body as an inseparable diad.

    YOU MAY ACCEPT MY RAMBLING THOUGHTS AS THEY ARE, OR AFTER MODERATION, OR JUST REJECT AS RUBBISH. Which option to exercise is your privilege. Thanks.

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  23. I found a few errors and incomplete sentences in my response on this page. For instance, I wrote 'We are living in a world of three dimensions which floats over another dimension, namely, space, the fourth.' The correct statement shd. have 'time' instead of 'space'. I hope readers will, with a little effort, make out what I meant to say. I am not very happy, of course, with this attempt on your wonderful blog, but in my future participation in your blog discussions, I shall first preview and only then, with due editing, send the final version to be published.

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  24. Crap Sujai! You sounded like a 'lost child' in circus of your own thoughts.Seems neither you have developed apt logic nor feelings.

    Have you just given a thought deeply that why Vedas are still there and why 'delusional' creatures like you are reading them? lol..Several hundreds fools who were much brilliant than you in the sense of cognitive development tried to critcise,critcised, but failed.WHY?

    Your good analysis and hence this blog is just good for 'reservation' else you should unsubscribe it for your own sake.

    You know one thing, Science cant be evolved up to its fullest meaning unless it includes an element of philosophy..

    Good Luck for 'staying in pissed' stage.By the way you did appreciable mental-mastrubation over reservation issue.Bless!

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  25. It is not longer a division of our beautiful earth as East and West. Both the hemispheres have quotas of the same kinds of people, taking or opposing sides of a basic premise. Thus, in the West, there is an increasing number of people with a conviction of spirituality, and a vastly superior though imperceptibly declining number of those who do not have use for spirituality. The truth is, the whole world was all the time like this, and so it will be. The reason, man may not be the ultimate product of all evolution, or, if you will, of God. I may sound magisterial in saying so, but upon reflection it will appear so, to anyone who cares to reflect. The debate, or rather, its opposing two sides, prove that we are men, conscious beings. And taking CONSCIOUSNESS, the physical and biological scientists only now have considered it necessary not to totally ignore this aspect. Deepak Chopra says that even now there are very many physical and biological scientists consider consciousness as an epi-phenomenon of all the phenomena that they are dealing with in their research investigations based on counting and measuring. But, Deepak says, consciousness IS THE PHENOMENON, and all else that appeal so easily to the scientists is EPIPHENOMENA. [ epi = upa, cognate in Indo-European languages]. In the Bhagavad-gita, which is trusted since times immemorial as the essence of all the Vedas, not only in the East among large sections, but also by a growing no. of philosophers of the West, the science of spirituality [ adhyaatma-vidyaa] is the epitome of all sciences. To my mind, this statement implies that as mankind increases the feebleness and inability of the natural sciences [physical plus biological] to explain with any certainty and usefulness, ever so many mysterious phenomena like mother in all species exhibiting an inexplicable attachment to its sibling upto a certain stage of growth; telepathy, telekinesis, etc. which are NOT amenable to experimental verification despite their being manifest through actual experience; and so on. There is an all-pervading and absolute truth which transcends whatever we can comprehend and arrive a consensus at, with our sensory organs of perception of ears, nose, skin, eyes and tongue whose outputs are inputs for the central nervous system, the brain. Now, the terms, brain, mind, spirit, soul, consciousness are being given specialized meanings by philosophers AND scientists, although it will be fashionable for, say, a doctor to say, "In all my life, I never could see a specimen of the much talked about soul blowing off a dying man whom I was treating". The spiritualist, who is a specialized philosopher will not of course give him a Gallantry Award to that doctor for his trivializing the issue of spirituality with such words.

    In the end of this response, but this debate is bound to be endless!, I feel like adding that there is much more for all of us to wonder and yet not getting a definite answer, in spirituality, while there is so, so much to derive from the interaction of our mind, the natural elements and the forces like gravity, electricity and magnetism. The former is daunting and tantalizing for the sincere seeker, the latter gets titillations with the ad hoc answers based on measuring and counting [ that is science and counting with math and instruments of various kinds ]. The Vedas, or rather the Upanishads which constitute the Jnaana-kaanda or the Spiritual Wisdom portion of them meaning, the Upanishads, are essentially concerned with Spirituality, not at all with electronics, particle physics, or astrophysics and that kind of science areas. The claim that the Vedas contain all knowledge of airplanes, or rockets, trasmutation of one element into another due to the basic oneness of all matter. As one of the thoughtful respondents on this blog site has stated, the Vedas were NOT concerned with these physical concepts and technologies which have their role as size of human population increases, and the landscape gets "shrunk" in relation to population size, giving rise to demands of rapid mass transport, housing with vertical growth of buildings, quick reliefs from physical sufferings, and so forth. The spirit, the consciousness that underlies all matter, whether animate or inanimate, organic or inorganic, is the subtlest cosmic self. Saints, of all religions, realized this spiritual truth, through their subjective experience, and preached that eperience for the benefit of the suffering masses, and wanted that meditation and prayer can help establish a communication link between the individual self and the cosmic self so that the miseries of earthly existence will seem considerably less, and more bearable. Mere rationalistic science will NEVER, NEVER help in the pursuit of happiness and peace which should be the true purpose of knowledge with wisdom, or science with spirituality. Some of the greatest scientsts testify to this truth and yet differed among themselves: Einstein thrilled at the perfection of the natural laws, to the extent his limited span of existence allowed him to realize, but Niels Bohr said perfection does not autopmatically translate certitude in everything for any human being. Einstein said, if God's macrocosmic universe is predictably law-abiding, there is no room for Bohr's and Heisenberg's uncertainty. Einstein elaborated his statement on certainty, saying that his God does not play at dice. To which Bohr retored saying "Einstein, you tell God what to do with his dice". This simple incident between two of the greatest philosopher-scientists, to my little mind, means that by means of arguments all science can only come to a standstill, so avoiding such arguments, nay, through such debate, and yet keeping spirituality as the source of inspiration, we should carry on endlessly with our scientific and spiritual endeavours. I ALSO WISH TO ADD HERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEBATE ABOUT EVOLUTION VS. INTELLIGENT DESIGN. My thought on this is that whenever we talk about Evolution, we consciously deal only with unicellular organisms growing in stages, and observing certain laws such as the survival of the fittest, to higher and higher species, so far ending with Man. Maybe, after a few million years later, if man does not extinguish his kind by playing with fission and fusion bombs and tampering with natural elements and the ozone layer, for his own creature comfort, preferring sensory titillation to spiritual and intellectual bliss, THEN, man can evolve still higher, into some species while many of his kind are still languishing as men, due to opertion of law of survival of fittest, along with all those lesser species such as dolphins, chimpanzees, buffaloes, and the like. At this point, I wish to ask the respondents to this blog, what business have we to assume that there are NO SUPERIOR BEINGS, EVEN IF WE CANNOT DIRECTLY OBSERVE THEM WITH OUR SENSES, even at the present time ? And how the hell is it logically correct to think that evolution in other planets in the stellar systems out there, has NOT already resulted in such species far superior to Man on this tiny little earth of ours ? Hence Intelligent Design should, properly, be applied to the whole, infinite, and expanding cosmos, and not just to our Solar system, much less our Milky Way galaxy, alone. So this talk of Evolution and ID leaves much to be desired.

    BEFORE ENDING THIS, let me say something about this INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION, a phrase which one respondent has used in his response. I do not myself use this word combination, though it is up to the blog owner to keep it or delete it. The respondent who used it seems to think that what some other respondents have said is some illogical and internally inconsistent, even incogent and inconherent nonsense from his viewpoint. I may illustrate the use of rustic type of usage: My uncles, at least two generations older to me, were from the villages, when there was not even electricity or when buses moved with coal-fired boilers fitted on for steam to provide motive power. My uncles had a penchat for using them frequently.Today I cannot use the same which my uncles did. That is because, whilst they used it with absolute precision, as it were, to put the required punch into what they said - especially objections - we cannot do this since we have evolved different forms of civility norms.

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  26. Well there is one curiosity in me. All the inventions took place in the west when India was ruled by the british since 1600 AD. This gives room for suspicion that the scientific minded British / Europeans somehow managed to take out the details of the vedas / upanishads from some Indians who probably had knowledge of lot of things.

    As an example the radio was not invented by Marconi. Its now confirmed Radio was originally invented by J C Bose.

    As such I think there must be investigations as to why the inventions took place only after 1600 AD when India was under British Rule.

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  27. A couple of teangential points:

    Actually the greater one claims the Vedas to be the more embarrassing it is to be a moden Indian. we have nothing that comes even close to the breadth, depth and sheer ambition of vedas, ramayana, mahabharata. Our best is Bollywood.
    Of course we are intellignet enough to understand our intellectual shallowness and so some of us go the route of saying "we knew it all 2000 years before you guys." Others take the route of saying "Indian stuff is all trash".

    This is like trying to compare two things where you know the weight of one and the length of the other. Item A is 35 kilos and item B is 5 meters. Someone says item A is bigger than B because 35 is more than 5. The fact is that modern science and the vedas are like chalk and cheese. You cannot compare them. So the question then to be asked is: is this a useful exercise? The only use of this article it seems to me is the possible de-bunking of some people who think everything in modern science was already in the vedas. But is such debunking a good or interesting or useful thing? Probably none of these. OK, one might feel some vicarious pleasure in pointing out how stupid some people are. On the other hand the world is an interesting place simply because there are so many different views in it :-)

    Vertropic

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  28. While talking of the Vedas and the Puranas, and the various Vidyas or Shastras (such as Dhanurvidya, Vaimaanika shastra, ... ), visavis achievements of modern science and technology, we should also remember that the discoveries and devices get obsolete as advances are made, and hence, it gets confusing to anyone attempting modern science vs. Veda comparisons, to sort out this problem of obsolescence factor. Thus, for example, helicopters, propelller driven aircraft, jumbo jets driven by gas turbine power, and other items (flying saucers?? !! ) in that specific category, have just to be taken as flying machines, again those with capability to fly within the atmospheres of living planets, or inter-stellar machines! The Vedas and the other ancient texts [almost all of them handed down by Karna-paramparaa] do mention flying machines, those with speeds of winds (vaayu-vega) and those with speed of thought/ mind (mano-vega).

    Given these two facts - obsolescence factor by which today's genre of machines are a forgotten factor tomorrow; and the basic ideas of flying machines with Intra-atmospheric and Inter-stellar capabilities, you don't expect in that perspective to obtain design details of a machine with the features of Sabre Jets or any other specific flying machine types.

    A slight, but only slight, digression from this subject, in some detail, may provide some further insight for our debate. According to Johannes v. Butlar, writing in his book 'Journey to Infinity', Tsiolkovsky - or, Konstantin E. Ziolkowski (1857-1935), who was among the pioneers in the field of rocketry for space travel, "expressed himself as convinced of the necessity for the use of telepathy in future space-flights. Ziolkowski regarded telepathy as one of the greatest essentials for the further development of humanity. And in his opinion, man would solve the problems of the human spirit by penetrating the mysteries of psychical phenomena, while spce-travel would open up the universe to him. ... Ziolkowski believed that humanity would reach its highest fulfilment through knowledge of space travel and parapsychology."

    But how the hell is this reference to Tiolkovsky relevant visavis science in the Vedas, you ask? My answer is that we today, on this little 'blue dot' (Carl Sagan's term for the earth), have no business to believe that space and air travels were invented and inaugurated by men just on our own planet, that too in our present centuries. My answer, further, is ours is just one among the possible millions or billions among the numberless trillions of galaxies, each star, in general, having a system of orbiting planets around a sun (star). Please see Carl Sagan's relevant works {like his 'Cosmos') or view selected videos (uploaded on Youtube, for instance) on this subject of galaxies and planetary systems. Sagan has also spoken eloquently on the reality or otherwise the dreamlike nature of the material universe and he talks about the Vedic statements speculating that our universe just may just be dream stuff of Brahmaa, or the universe merely a nonexistent nonmaterial object which is produced in man's dreams.

    In fact Einstein is said to have squarely asked Rabindranath Tagore what he thinks on the question whether or not the Universe exists independent of human mind/thought. Responding to which, Tagore (pardon me here, I am writing from vague memory, but you can do web research on these points with suitable entry on Google search) elaborted on the Drg-Drshya-Viveka of the Advaita Vedanta in which the seer and the sought are, in the final analysis, one and the same. It may not have been recorded whether Einstein was satisfied with the response, used, as he was, to equations, and science based on them using counting and measuring concepts, though Einstein himself never had to bother himself with apparatuses and conduct experiments (which some contemporaries or later day scientists did, for verification of his equations' truth).

    I may end my response here with this: Our ancient texts are not compartmentalized for their conceptual framework, in the sense that physical scientific and technological pursuits were also 00stipulated to be viewed, for serving any noble purpose, in tandem with spiritual profundities. The Vedas had a cosmic vision, and not just of today and OUR earth. The Vedic knowledge IS, to us today, put in soome seemingly vague or obscure and somewhat recondite language. Vedic scholarship exists even today in several parts of our country, and the scholars are an isolated lot, since Sanskrit and Vedic knowledge is hardly ever a favorite for pursuit of study among the youth (not to speak of the old, since youth unprepared even on the margin, only generates the 'old'). There is even utter contempt for these studies, but not among the really serious thninkers with a feeling of remorse at their failures during their earlier years to continue such studies with seriousness,as well as the greatest achievers on intellectual front, many of whom have migrated to greener pastures in the West, mostly with the topmost and aspiring-for-top-slot American universities, NASA, and organizations of that class. It is to be recalled here that Mahatma Gandhi always emphasized the paramount importance of Sanskrit studies in our schools and universities, to the extent that he felt without them, our languages, all rooted in Sanskrit past, will languish and cease to grow in real terms (though not among pseudo educationists).

    The Vedic methods do not always conform to the rules of empirical science based on what is agreed, rather presumptuously sometimes, as rational logical reasoning. This may be because there are, as I have pointed out earlier in this debate, we are wallowing in a four dimensional universe, as it were, whereas the universe, even by current scientific thinking, may have at least eleven dimensions, of which not more than four may not admit of easy comprehension to all of us but a few to be counted on our fingertips. This being so, we would be merely exhibiting our limitations of thinking, and our ignorance, in discussing the heights to which human comprehension can ascend, such as the Vedic seers were able to. Which does not mean, however, why we should not strive strenuously and earnestly to think individually and collectively into the mysteries of our own exitence. Qeustioons like whether aeroplane designs are found in our Shastras pale into irrelevance, when the insights found in them are such as to attract the serious attention of Western scientists to whom we always reserve our admiration for their extraordinary intellectual prowess. Such scientists and thinkers include, Erwin Schrodinger, Robert Oppenheimer, Albert Einstein, Arthur Schopenhauer,just to cite a few examples. There are innumerable Indologists especially of Germany of the eighteenth century onwards who are still finding it tough, though convinced of the worthwhileness of their effort, to plough and uncover what our scriptures do really say. They are of course convinced that even words are formed in Sanskrit, and the Vedic predecesor of that language, on the basis of both the material and spiritual significance of the component letters (aksharas) conforming to rules of the Nighantu and Nirukta, the two forms of what may be called Grammar today.

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  29. Sujai,

    You may enjoy reading this discussion about Deepak Chopra and Quantum Physics.

    Hijacking Quantum Physics for spiritual healing.

    Nice blog. I share some of the views you have expressed in your blog.

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  30. When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." ~ Albert Einstein

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  31. It may sound funny, but after reading your article and your opinion on Science and Veda, the one thing that you mention at the very top of your article is VERY true..."Opinions are like...". :-)

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  32. Crictcism comes from rejection at conscious level of the acceptance at subconcious level.
    Both the views have solidarity. But if modern science uses the crutches of vedas, it won't run to the end.
    Vedas must not be the first one, because if the time is endless, there cannot be any such thing as first or last. Vedas might be 100% right (which i guess they are because of their increasing acceptance and very long sustainance), but this does not mean we should stop thinking and start believing.(believing means accepting out of fear or laziness)
    So to summarize, the criricisers must criticise vedas, but with an open mind. Try to disprove them. If they are right, we will get there sooner or later. If not, we will have written modern-vedas.

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  33. I am C.S. Moorthy deerply interested in the subject. You are ofcourse partly right and partly way off the mark as many others and your commentrators suffer.
    At the outset, realise that there are two ways of arriving at the same discoveries. If you see the dictionary it will tell you that spirit and matter are two sides of the same coin. Marion Woodman is credited with the statement that "Matter without Spirit is a corpse." The vedas elected the path of Spirit and Modern Science the path of Matter. Further, there is a vast difference between Pure Theoritical Science and Applied Science such as making Aeroplanes; Air conditioners; fridge etc., This difference should be borne in mind. You cannot take up Applied Science and seek congruence with vedas. The Seers were by nature bereft of wants and shunned publicity. Utilitarian considerations never clouded their pursuit of Eternal Truths.
    You may plese see my blog- http://moorthychoudur.blogspot.com Thank you,
    C. S. Moorthy

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  34. You said that 16th century AD, science started developing. I accept this. But, the distance between earth and sun was calculated thousands of years ago..
    Science tells Sun age is 5000 years. In India, we've many ancient things which are more than thousands of years. Last year ie 2008, in Godawaya, a skeleton was found which dated 7000 years. Did that man lived without the help of sun? So, the age of Sun is NOT 5000years. Hence, Science is wrong. But, according to Vedas, the age of sun is more than a lakh!
    http://www.tamilnet.tv/index.php/7000-year-old-tamil-skeleton-found-09024?blog=1

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  35. Anonymous:

    You said that 16th century AD, science started developing. I accept this. But, the distance between earth and sun was calculated thousands of years ago..

    Scientific Revolution started in 16th Century, not Science.

    Science tells Sun age is 5000 years.

    Science says that Sun is approximately 5 Billion years which is 5,000,000,000 years. You seem to be missing 6 zeros. Missing 6 zeros may be acceptable in Vedas, but not in Science.

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  36. Okay here are my two cents.
    I think one can understand Vedas best if we take it as science (not as something mystical.

    1. Vedic Chants: Science is beginning to say that there are sound vibrations that are healing to the body, after all we are made of 70% water. German scientists are saying that Sanskrit Language is most suitable for computer programming. Lets put the two thoughts together. We have been told that Sanskrit is the language of the Gods, maybe in the ancient times a higher life or intellegence developed Sanskrit (just like a computer language - with the only difference that Sanskrit can also be used for everyday communication). And maybe the mantras are simple sound vibrations that are healing to the body and mind, purposely devloped by scientists in ancient times - as a balm for the nerves and the body. It is suddenly not so mystical. (Another reason why translations of chants may not work. Just listening to them is recommended in case one has absolutely no knowledge of the language.)

    2. During the World Wars, German scientists regularly studied ancient texts from all over the world and decoded or took leads from these ancient books (not necessarily only Indian) to develop medicines ,aircraft, arms and ammunition. This is a fact that even the German scientists accept. Remember Max Muller, the German Sanskrit scholar - he was here for a purpose!

    3. Read translations of 230 stanzas of the Samara Sutradhara from the Vedas. They refer to air travel.

    4. Read the Vaimanika Sastra (Section of Veda) that reveals the secret of piloting 'Vimanas' (aeroplanes) and "Vialaxis' (inter-galactic space crafts).

    5. Recently China found some ancient texts in Sanskrit in Tibet, and sent them to the University of Chandigarh for translations. It was found that the texts have information on anti-gravity flying science for inter-galactic travel. The Indian scientists pooh-poohed the idea, when the Chinese government said that they wanted to do further research on the material, it is only then that the Indians took a second look.

    We might be sitting on a wealth of information left for the whole world by some ancient civilization, obviously the info is pre-vedic. The weapon that India has is the knowledge of Sanskrit.

    I think lets look at the science behind the Vedas.

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  37. Hi, www.eanveshan.com ,here is an open source movement for exploration of ancient indian sciences, entirely dedicated to find scientific evidences in ancient Sanskrit texts.

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  38. "According to me, Vedas for all their mysteriousness can be an interesting and mysterious read but can never substitute or find itself close to any department of Science."

    Hmmm. Which is first? Should the question be whether Science can replace Veda or the other way round? What comes next, will try to replace what already existed.

    Anyway, the point is that it makes no sense to expect an ancient record to match modern science. It is simply a non-topic.

    Secondly, as the texts themselves say, Veda is axiomatic knowledge, not objectively verifiable knowledge. It is consulted to verify what is otherwise non-verifiable or non-refutable. On the other hand science is by definition verifiable and refutable. So what is the point in this exercise?

    What is perhaps worth discussing, is what kind of knowledge system was Veda a part of, what was the approach to truth, what was the criterion for ascertaining truth, what were the methods for verifying and refuting a hypotheses. It is the framework of knowledge, that makes the Vedic knowledge not just commendable, but something to be looked at for learning a truly objective approach to truth.

    The subjects of debate, analysis, inquiry into truth, inquiry into the verification/ascertaining truth, formal logic, knowledge structuring - are to be studied to understand the beauty of traditional knowledge system. It is there that you will understand what "rigorous" and "methodical" research means.

    Then what comes, is the nature of essential truth of the universe, contrasted to its phenomenal/relative truth. Which is where Veda even comes into the picture.

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  39. The Vedas (their Upanishadic or Vedanta, part) themselves proclaim that it is not possible to even describe the truth of the Supreme Self and fundamental reality of the Cosmic (macro and micro), however much, and by whatever means (including science), one may attempt. What can be observed and 'known' by naked eye, microscopes, telescopes and use of means of controlled experiments, observations, and mathematical and physical inferential methods of science, is objective knowledge which is liable to revision, modification or abandonment by further effort. The efforts to realize truth cannot be merely objective. There is an equally valid method, which is more satisfying at the individual level, belongs in the subjective realm. In this realm, the observer and the observed, in the final stages of realization, become indistinguishable. Such final stage of realization is only heard of, in respect of a few individuals. The Upanishads state, "yato vaacho nivartante, apraapya manasaa saha" while pointing out, in an authoritative manner, of course, that however much the mind tries to comprehend and attempts a fully satisfactory account to itself of the Truth, it always returns without achieving the truth. Albert Einstein, right until his death, was filled with a dissatisfaction due to an unanswered question, whether there is a separate universe outside the mind. (He is even said to have plied this question at Rabindranath Tagore who was famous for propagating his Upanishadic wisdom as a common treasure for all mankind to cherish.) In the Upanishadic wisdom, mind is only a substratum of a subtle concept of Atman, which is the individual self/ soul and which the seers are said to have realized as no different from the Universal or Supreme Cosmic Self which thrills, as it were, in making universal laws such as the scientific ones, and the infinity of other non-materialistic/ spiritualistic laws that implicitly operate when we as humans interact among ourselves and with the rest of the ecology.

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  40. The comments of many adherents of vedas as science here remind me nothing so much as Biblical science and Koranic science!

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  41. I appreicate the point that vedas and science are arriving at same point in different paths.

    We cannot say vedas are just hypothesis and only modern science has the ability to create.For one thing vedas are written by humans and we all know we humans cannot keep quiet by just knowing hypothetically it is obvious that we will try to create. There is correlation here like humans those who have written vedas have definitely tired to create the things from what they have learned!!

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  42. Vedas - it is what it is, no harm in exploring what it all means. Praising and exploring Vedas is not the same thing as discrediting modern science, they could be mutually exclusive. Lord of the rings is no veda!

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  43. You put up what you think. Let me put up what I think about Vedas.

    Vedas have an age from 1500 years to billions of years depending upon who says it. The most respected preachers will tell the longest time of existence of Vedas, which automatically falsifies any evolution and almost every laws of modern physics, at least.

    I'd like to believe that the latest revisions of Vedas (except of course, small rewritings done in 20th century) based on scientific records is at most 2000 years old.
    If you say it is right or lesser, then you will have to admit that they have copied from Aristotle, Plato and Socrates (because of so many matches which could not have been possible if one was not copied from the other), which brings me to "My ex-religion sucks big time. Its just a copy of clean and well expressed thoughts made into illusive language such that people were deluded".
    If you think otherwise however, you will find yourself as hypocritic when you agree with both the statements "Vedas is science" and "Science is always wrong" (which actually implies that it changes with newer discoveries). Now if your Vedas is older than 2000 years and it has not been changed ever since, how come it is science at all? Or have any association with science.

    I am a proud ex-Hindu and an atheist.

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  44. When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.
    - Albert Einstein


    The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles. The East is grand -- and makes Europe appear the land of trifles. All is soul and the soul is Vishnu ...cheerful and noble is the genius of this cosmogony. Hari is always gentle and serene - he translates to heaven the hunter who has accidentally shot him in his human form, he pursues his sport with boors and milkmaids at the cow pens; all his games are benevolent and he enters into flesh to relieve the burdens of the world.
    - Ralph Waldo Emerson


    In the great teaching of the Vedas, there is no touch of sectarianism. It is of all ages, climes and nationalities and is the royal road for the attainment of the Great Knowledge.
    - Henry David Thoreau


    It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family.
    - Arnold Joseph Toynbee

    _____


    The glory of Hinduism lies in the fact that while it has defined ideals, it has never dared to say that any one of these alone was the one true way. In this it differs from Buddhism, which exalts monasticism above all others as the path that must be taken by all souls to reach perfection. The story given in the Mahabharat of the young saint who was made to seek enlightenment, first from a married woman and then from a butcher, is sufficient to show this. 'By doing my duty', said each one of these when asked, 'by doing my duty in my own station, have I attained this knowledge'. There is no career then which might not be the path to God. The question of attainment depends only, in the last resort, on the thirst of the soul.

    Ishvara and Brahman

    Ishvara is the sum total of individuals, yet He is an Individual, as the human body is a unit, of which each cell is an individual. Samashti or collected equals God; Vyashti or analysed equals the Jiva. The existence of Ishvara, therefore, depends on that of Jiva, as the body on the cell, and vice versa. Thus, Jiva and Ishvara are coexistent beings; when one exists, the other must. Also, because, except on our earth, in all the higher spheres, the amount of good being vastly in excess of the amount of evil, the sum total (Ishvara) may be said to be all-good. Omnipotence and omniscience are obvious qualities and need no argument to prove from the very fact of totality. Brahman is beyond both these and is not a conditioned state; it is the only Unit not composed of many units, the principle which runs through all from a cell to God, without which nothing can exist; and whatever is real is that principle, or Brahman. When I think I am Brahman, I alone exist; so with others. Therefore, each one is the whole of that principle.

    Om Namah Shivaya

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  45. INDIA: THE MOTHER OF WORLD CIVILIZATION:

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/66579

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/66h6v

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/6ce5t

    In one word, the ideal of Vedanta is to know man as he really is, and this is its message, that if you cannot worship your brother man, the manifested God, how can you worship a God who is unmanifested?

    If you are really pure, how do you see the impure? For what is within, is without. We cannot see impurity without having it inside ourselves. This is one of the practical sides of Vedanta, and I hope that we shall all try to carry it into our lives.

    Doing good to others is virtue (dharma); injuring others is sin. Strength and manliness are virtue; weakness and cowardice are sin. Independence is virtue; dependence is sin. Loving others is virtue; hating others is sin. Faith in God and in one's own Self is virtue; doubt is sin.

    The definition of God and man: Man is an infinite circle whose circumference is nowhere, but the centre is located in one spot; and God is an infinite circle whose circumference is nowhere, but whose centre is everywhere.

    traigunya-vishaya vedah / nistraigunyo bhavarjuna
    nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho / niryoga-kshema atmavan

    veda---the Vedic; vishaya---subject matter; (is) trai-gunya---pertaining to the modes of material nature; bhava---be; nistraigunyah---beyond the three modes; nirdvandvah---be free from duality; (and) nitya-sattva-sthah--- situated in pure goodness or spiritual existence; (be) niryoga-kshemah---detached from the tendency to preserve and acquire; atma-van---and be endowed with intelligence given by Me.

    O Arjuna, rise above the modes described in the Vedas and become established in nirguna-tattva (nirgun - niryog - without any trait). Be free from all dualities such as honour and dishonour, and do not worry about profit and loss. Become situated in shuddha-sattva by using the intelligence awarded by Me.

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  46. Isha Upanishad:

    Andham tamah pravisanti ye vidyam upasate ll

    Tato bhuya iva te tamo ya u vidyayam ratah ll


    (They who worship ignorance enter into darkness

    And they who worship knowledge enter into greater darkness)

    Knowledge is memory of the past. From the recent past, a split second ago, or years back. Brahman, the Ultimate Reality, is never a memory, never a thing of the past. It is the living present, the eternal, immediate present, and can never be comprehended by knowledge, which has only the past as reference.

    Knowledge is memory of the past. From the recent past, a split second ago, or years back. Brahman, the Ultimate Reality, is never a memory, never a thing of the past. It is the living present, the eternal, immediate present, and can never be comprehended by knowledge, which has only the past as reference.

    When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.
    - Albert Einstein


    The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles. The East is grand -- and makes Europe appear the land of trifles. All is soul and the soul is Vishnu ...cheerful and noble is the genius of this cosmogony. Hari is always gentle and serene - he translates to heaven the hunter who has accidentally shot him in his human form, he pursues his sport with boors and milkmaids at the cow pens; all his games are benevolent and he enters into flesh to relieve the burdens of the world.
    - Ralph Waldo Emerson


    In the great teaching of the Vedas, there is no touch of sectarianism. It is of all ages, climes and nationalities and is the royal road for the attainment of the Great Knowledge.
    - Henry David Thoreau


    It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family.
    - Arnold Joseph Toynbee

    _____

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  47. The glory of Hinduism lies in the fact that while it has defined ideals, it has never dared to say that any one of these alone was the one true way. In this it differs from Buddhism, which exalts monasticism above all others as the path that must be taken by all souls to reach perfection. The story given in the Mahabharat of the young saint who was made to seek enlightenment, first from a married woman and then from a butcher, is sufficient to show this. 'By doing my duty', said each one of these when asked, 'by doing my duty in my own station, have I attained this knowledge'. There is no career then which might not be the path to God. The question of attainment depends only, in the last resort, on the thirst of the soul.

    Ishvara and Brahman

    Ishvara is the sum total of individuals, yet He is an Individual, as the human body is a unit, of which each cell is an individual. Samashti or collected equals God; Vyashti or analysed equals the Jiva. The existence of Ishvara, therefore, depends on that of Jiva, as the body on the cell, and vice versa. Thus, Jiva and Ishvara are coexistent beings; when one exists, the other must. Also, because, except on our earth, in all the higher spheres, the amount of good being vastly in excess of the amount of evil, the sum total (Ishvara) may be said to be all-good. Omnipotence and omniscience are obvious qualities and need no argument to prove from the very fact of totality. Brahman is beyond both these and is not a conditioned state; it is the only Unit not composed of many units, the principle which runs through all from a cell to God, without which nothing can exist; and whatever is real is that principle, or Brahman. When I think I am Brahman, I alone exist; so with others. Therefore, each one is the whole of that principle.

    Om Namah Shivaya

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  48. Blogs are so informative where we get lots of information on any topic. Nice job keep it up!!
    _____________________________

    International Finance Dissertation

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  49. From Neeta: The answer is simple:
    1. Vedas are revealed sciences. That is the sages and rishis are from either some other planet or from another dimension.
    2. They are our fathers or Pitra. We were genetically engineered by them,
    3. We are not the same level of intelligence either in the field of science or ethics.
    4. They left to us all the knowledge they had, but we are lowerein intelligence and are limited by our 5 senses, that is why we are repeatedly asked to initiate our sixth sense through meditation, and invoke our pineal gland, which incidently is located between our two eyes and is also composed of cones and rods like the other two eyes. It is only through the sixth sense that we will have a better understanding of science and the universe. As long as we look at Vedas as myth and philosophy we are not going to get anywhere.

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  50. This kind of information is very limited on internet. Nice to find the post related to my searching Project management dissertation . Your updated and informative post will be appreciated by blog loving people.

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  51. i have seen the science of vedas....you would not have ever seen a person getting alive.....but i have seen a dead getting alive with the vedic knowledge.....we need a higher education to understand the vedic knowledge...as a rikshaw puller cannot understand the theory of relatiovity of Eienstein likewise we can't understand the vedas....but vedas are pure science...so we need the divine knowledge that is BRAHMH GYAN to understand that knowledge that is written in our vedas... yes we can make the airoplanes which travel with the speed of mind......because i have got that knowledge that my lord has given me......i will try to reveal those to whole the world...these vedas are not only the stories...these are facts that will be revealed sooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnn...........

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  52. Dear friend, I request you to understand the depths of Indian Philosophy. Please keep in mind, Vedas were not only about science but its about spirituality too. There are lot of reference in Vedas and Srimad bhagwatam about the speed of thought ( which is lot faster than light). what if after some 100 years, modern science discover the speed of thought. And we find it in books of vedas. Will it be a coincidence or is it our simple mentality, how can our ancestors be intelligent than us. NO WAY, isnt it?
    Same way modern science says there are three states of sleep, where as our old saints says, there are four states of sleep. What if after some years modern science discover the fourth state too and says Oh it is just a coincidence that Indian books are mention bout the fourth state of sleep.
    Modern science, thinks matter as a non living thing, which does not have any conciousness. However, in sub atomic level we know all the structure are same. Living or Non living. Indian vedas talks bout conciousness in non living thing too. that means they already knew bout string theory or in other words they called every thing is a form of Shakti(energy). In Einstein's words E=MC^2 Energy equalls mass * square speed of light. Is it a coincidence? Mythology? I would what a expendable insight to write such stories then by our ancient people.
    Modern science has yet not been able to describe the conciousness in every being. But Vedas do explain bout it.
    I agree Vedas were not available to the common people, but only to some people who were highly qualified and responsible citizens. Look, what our world has got into by the exposure of atom bomb or a normal bomb. every one can make it Every one has power to destroy.
    It is not important how much power you gain, its important how responsibly you use the power. In this case its the power of knowledge.

    A question. What if the world gets destroyed now and a book written by Einstien is recoverd by some people after 1000 years. Will they be able to understand the formula E=MC2? That wil l not make any sense to them. But they will definetly understand after someone from that age will again understnd how energy and mass works. He will also create a formula. But does that mean, Einstien was a myth and this formula was never invented before?

    Sujit

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  53. Sujit

    Dear friend, I request you to understand the depths of Indian Philosophy. Please keep in mind, Vedas were not only about science but its about spirituality too. There are lot of reference in Vedas and Srimad bhagwatam about the speed of thought ( which is lot faster than light). what if after some 100 years, modern science discover the speed of thought. And we find it in books of vedas. Will it be a coincidence or is it our simple mentality, how can our ancestors be intelligent than us. NO WAY, isnt it?
    Same way modern science says there are three states of sleep, where as our old saints says, there are four states of sleep. What if after some years modern science discover the fourth state too and says Oh it is just a coincidence that Indian books are mention bout the fourth state of sleep.
    Modern science, thinks matter as a non living thing, which does not have any conciousness. However, in sub atomic level we know all the structure are same. Living or Non living. Indian vedas talks bout conciousness in non living thing too. that means they already knew bout string theory or in other words they called every thing is a form of Shakti(energy). In Einstein's words E=MC^2 Energy equalls mass * square speed of light. Is it a coincidence? Mythology? I would what a expendable insight to write such stories then by our ancient people.
    Modern science has yet not been able to describe the conciousness in every being. But Vedas do explain bout it.
    I agree Vedas were not available to the common people, but only to some people who were highly qualified and responsible citizens. Look, what our world has got into by the exposure of atom bomb or a normal bomb. every one can make it Every one has power to destroy.
    It is not important how much power you gain, its important how responsibly you use the power. In this case its the power of knowledge.

    A question. What if the world gets destroyed now and a book written by Einstien is recoverd by some people after 1000 years. Will they be able to understand the formula E=MC2? That wil l not make any sense to them. But they will definetly understand after someone from that age will again understnd how energy and mass works. He will also create a formula. But does that mean, Einstien was a myth and this formula was never invented before?
    Sujit

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  54. astha has a point but i think vedant philosophy is making us showing us how to live in real as true person without any problem sometime we think about money but its true that rich are not satisfied with his or her money so be careful and thinking about the fact yes we have to think about future but if we know our past well we can we will grow nicely like superpower we need to serch set up link between past .

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  55. Science is purely abstract. Can one even prove "nothing exists", I am talking of zero (0) or why the counting stops at 9 and why not 11 or 12 or 13? I hope you are understanding what I am trying to say.

    The axioms behind mathematics are so ingrained into us that we don't think of questioning them. If we question them once, we will realize its all abstract. Completely abstract. Similar is the language of Vedas. They are all axioms and corollaries.

    Lastly, Vedas is not about physics. It is not. It is the interpretation that philosophers have made about them. Real knowledge of Vedas is about how to live life and the rules, ways of living life. It is on the science of life and living this life and thus that science can be extrapolated to any other sciences but then its all dependent on the interpretor of the message that Veda is giving.

    Peace.

    Om tat sat.

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  56. If you really want to explore science in Vedas, please read this book:

    Modern Science in Vedas - written by Dhananjay Deshpande (You can buy it from Amazon)

    It is an excellent book and gives excellent evidences of Modern Science in Vedas.

    Actually, the verses in Vedas are coded and you will have to decode them in order to understand the science in it and this can be done by a person who has sufficient knowledge of Modern Science.

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  57. Even though scientific method produces clear theories, science's understanding of Nature, on a very small or very large scale, looks more like a patchwork than a consistent viewpoint. Religion is well-positioned to explain some of the phenomena that is troubling modern cosmology as well as to provide an extensive philosophical background for the new theory of everything.

    Therefore, i wouldn't discard Vedas just yet. Yes, they don't contain formulas, and are perhaps cryptic, but think of it - how would you otherwise encode your knowledge and pass it on to the future generations - if you would know that the dark age (where the knowledge, with the ability to understand formulas, is destroyed) is coming?

    Only now we are coming back onto that level of understanding, that the knowledge passed on to us (through various religious texts) is starting to make sense.

    In my earlier post i mentioned a new mathematical model (http://holyscience.wordpress.com/in-the-beginning-was-the-vibration/) which postulates that matter is produced by the primordial (Aum) vibration, the Word.

    In my book Whence Do We Come? i tried to provide a comprehensive philosophical, spiritual, and religious background for this new theory. In essence (if validated by the broader scientific community), it would prove the following religious dogmas: “God is the source of all,” “God is omnipresent,” “God is omnipotent” and “God is eternal” (i.e. outside of the space and time).

    I also tried to venture out further and looked for religious thoughts about things like dark matter and dark energy, and their role in creating the multiverse we live in... I also looked at what creation cycles, five elements, evolution (of consciousness) etc. could mean from a scientific viewpoint...

    Free PDF version of the book could be downloaded here: http://holyscience.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/whence-do-we-come3.pdf

    More info about the same could be found here: http://holyscience.wordpress.com/whence-do-we-come/

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  58. Study Vimanika shastra for desiging planes. Study Vaisheshik darshan of kannad to study atomic theory. Study Gandharv ved to study music, ayurved for medical science, surya siddhanta for astronomy, Shatpath ved for architecture, dhanur ved for military science, arthshastra for politics and so on. the thing is there are two types of knowledge in vedas. One is Para and second is apara. The above knowlwdge comes under apara(inferior) so Hindus don't give much importance to these things as who would look towards glass after acquiring diamonds.

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  59. Dear brothers / sisters, Please do not fight in the name of Veda & Science. Veda is knowledge simillarly Science. Science is the way of life today simillarly veda was the way of life in the ancient days.Science & Veda both are on the path of finding out the truth.Taking knowledge from veda & applying it to our life has no bar. Knowledge is not the property of anyone.Let us see science & veda from one angle & make our life beautiful & meaningful.

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  60. Sir, I did not believe in vedas till i saw a slokha where replacing ka with 1 kha with 2 (Basically sanskrit alphabets presented value of PI to 30 digits. That just cant be fluke.

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  61. Well This article seems to be a sort of Best Compromises with our level of understanding Vedas" Suggesting , Its okay guys , everything happens in India" You Would prefer blaming Knowledge for your ignorance . Guys , every one should understand the difference between a Diamond that has carbon and Coal having Carbon . Diamond is much better expression compared to Coal . Vedas are diamonds , The best ever expression of Knowledge.If I don't understand Vedas , It is my problem , not the problem of Vedas.Knowledge is not offered in a platter . It is experienced . Please don't blame Vedas for its complexities . Just accept , It is beyond your level of understanding...

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  62. you are true for youeself to keep peace in mind. Rather than curse on some try to research on own. Simply talking and writting is easy. I know this hurt you, but just think it not belong go India only, it belong to human race. If you wanna proof of vedas imporatnce just search in you tube witn word 'angigravity vechiles: vimana'. It tells how much progress had achived by our ancestor. Not mere words. Hope this will not hit your self respect. Keep reading new things about this subject you will feel it's depth.
    You may like visit to my home at http://jtkuwar.com

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  63. All nuts of veda lies may visit http://mukto-mona.net/Articles/vedic_science_Mira.htm

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  64. Mr. C.S.Moorthy,

    Well said!

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  65. The following two videos contain enough scientific evidence on the credibility of the Hindu scriptures and prove that they were not a figment of someone's imagination like Harry porter.

    1. Atomic Warfare in the Mahabharata (even after-effects of atomic warfare like distorted human nails etc. are mentioned).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8TV2G0iyGE

    2. Krishna History, myth or reality: exact dates and position of moon confirms its no mythology).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dalNJ4luBws

    Please let me know if this influences your thought.

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  66. all who think vedas r myth i wish i give them some proof of hw vedas cn hv the same knowledge tht we have today but the only thing is hw we look at it. I m a Vaidya(doctor in Aayurveda) we wr tought tht Madhur(sweet) is made up of Prithwi(earth) and Aap(jal, water) mahabhut.
    those who dont know what is Mahabhuta dont try to read or discus on vedas.
    so returning back to madhur, madhur means sugar can be taken as glucose as it is the main constituent of sugar have molecular formula C6H12O6. it can be easily divided into6(carbon) and 6(h2o). now, Carbon is the main constituant of earth or Prithwi and H2o is the water molecule. I dont think further modification or ennlightment i need to give. think ur own way and you wil find way. thanx.

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  67. You appear to me a person who is so obsessed with the western science development that's it.
    First of all if you want to criticize anything then you must have a complete knowledge of it.And clearly you neither have the complete knowledge of Vedas nor today's scientific development.

    Vedas were the Records of the scientific development made during that era.Since you very well know the portion of science discussed in Vedas therefore i will not go into it.
    Harrappa And Mohanjedaro-Indus Valley civilization.
    and the Lonar crater near Bombay.
    Just read about them you get the idea of the science during that era.

    And you are praising today's technology without considering their harmful effects over nature.With increase in technology we are exploiting our nature more and more.
    Go first do an intense search then write anything.

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  68. This is very old post but the content is not indeed. What I heard is , there are 1180 sekhas in vedas but overall only 7 sakhas are available that too not the full content. Indians are well known for some magical stuff parakaya prevesam, traveling bwt planets (locas) , invisible travel , the way Gandhari got 100 children(cloning) etc.. In all stories, mythologies we have heard about them. But by whoever acquired that knowledge, they sacrificed their life and learned that stuff. But later on people don’t want to learn that typical knowledge and would like to lead a common, general life. So over a period of time no body interested to creep the knowledge and indeed it is vanished.
    So human being started thinking from the beginning, they have started their own science (proud of it) and started doing reverse engineering and invention as a result I am able to send this message to all of you over internet.
    But from the common point of view, how many of us know how do we can receive mobile calls, how does a plan fly , atomic bomb or nuclear power! Just for example to become a doctor you need to sacrifice all your age for studies, to become an astronaut you ultimately live in education and knowledge. So majority of people would like to go for computer engineering which is comparatively easier or a teacher or a bank job.
    The only difference between ancient Indian Vedic science and modern science is modern science is well documented, well organized and well managed .This we learnt from our past experiences but ancient Vedic science disappear because people who knows the knowledge don’t want to share, not well documented and of course Sanskrit Vedas should sound properly and should learn with proper modulation rather than reading in a book and learning.
    I appreciate both the sciences , as a human being I am proud of our own science and engineering and as a Indian I amazed to heard of certain things which our science cannot resolve and perhaps impossible.



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  69. Great stuff. Totally agree with your conclusions.

    I had myself briefly written about something like this as part of a series on the concept of identity - http://blog.free-radical.in/2012/04/unbeliever-part-2.html.

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  70. as i read ur article, but i little not happy with ur conclusion, if u read u must have faith in it, if u want to understand deeply.if u really wants the truth.just think about a questions inside ask it god, repeat it at least a month, then the toughts that are coming in ur inside that must be ur answer. which need no proofs.

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