Saturday, September 15, 2007

ABC of Ram Sethu

This is in continuation of the earlier articles on Sethusamudram Project (Part I, Part II)

Did Rama exist?

There is no historical evidence to suggest Rama existed. That does not mean he did not exist. He may have. He may not have. For example, it is much easier to believe that Narasimha avatar of Lord Vishnu may not have existed in real life, mainly because it is hard to believe that a man actually took the shape of a lion. Also, it is much easier to dismiss that Vamana avatar existed because it is hard to believe a story where a man could step on a planet to cover it entirely with a foot. In the same vein, nobody actually asserts that Asuras and Devas really churned the sea using a mountain and a snake with a tortoise as the base. Such stories sound fantastical to be assumed real. However, many people do believe that Lord Krishna and Lord Rama existed and that they actually lived. Also, most people believe that Buddha existed and that he actually lived. Most people in the world believe that Mohammed Prophet, Alexander, Asoka existed and lived on this planet, in flesh and blood and not as mere fantasy of a book writer.

While some of the above characters have actually lived and existed, some may not have. How do we know who existed and who did not?

For example, coming to Alexander, there is lot of evidence to suggest he existed. The books describing him written during his life time have discussed events and places that have been recorded by others elsewhere. His conquests that describe his exploits in Persia and India have been recorded by different cultures and societies other than Greeks. So, a corroboration of the same person coming from various sources helps build the case that this person actually existed and that it is not a mere work of fiction. Also important are historical monuments described in the books actually existing dating to those exact times. Time of his existence is calculated from various sources. Some include timings such as lunar or solar eclipse, a recorded event such a flooding or earthquake, or hard evidences such as coins, artifacts, bones, etc.

There is no such evidence to suggest Rama existed. There is no historical evidence of Ayodhya- there are no ruins, or city walls dating to that period of time. There is no general agreement on the exact time of his existence either. The books that we find are not the original texts of those times, and hence we cannot even date them. They might as well be written much later. And there is no other visitor or another author from another society who has described Rama’s rule in any other book.

That does not mean he did not exist. He may very well have existed. But we cannot say for sure whether he existed or not. Hence, the conclusion, there is no evidence to suggest Rama existed.

Is Ram Sethu/Adam’s Bridge a natural formation?

It is a much easier explanation to suggest that it is indeed a natural formation. Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) estimates its formation to be approximately 125,000 years old.

But if it were indeed man-made, what are the signs one should look for?

Usually most of the construction sites of such large scale, such as Pyramids or Great Wall of China, leave behind traces of human presence- traces of coins, traces of bones, traces of human artifacts, like man-made shovels, etc. None of such evidence is found in Adam’s Bridge. It’s like asking whether Mount Everest is a natural formation. How can we be sure? Well, there is no evidence to suggest that it is man-made and it is highly probable that it is natural.

Also, constructions of such grand scale leave behind many other traces coming from similar times. Such constructions could be made only by large societies and hence such large societies tend to leave traces of cities, dwellings, utensils, bones, skeletons, jewelry, etc. But no such traces have been found.

Therefore, one has to conclude that Adam’s Bridge/Ram Sethu is indeed a natural formation.

Did Humans live 1.75 Millions ago in India as suggested by the petition?

The petitioners protesting the dredging of Adam’s Bridge/Ram Sethu have suggested that Rama has built this bridge 1.75 Million (1,750,000) years ago. That is a long time ago. The Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Humans) did not appear on this planet then.

At that time, there were proto-humans whose brain size was much smaller than ours, and if you had a chance to look at them you would pass them as apes. Our lineage got separated from other apes around 6 million years ago. But for most part of the journey we were not very human as we find ourselves now. Back then, we did not speak, we did not write, we did not have societies, we did not build cities- we were not even human then. But around 250,000 years ago (this date hovers between 130,000 and 300,000 years), proto-humans became humans, originated in Africa and spread to most parts of the world. The frequent ice ages decreased the sea level and hence the land bridges allowed people to go as far as tip of South America using the land bridge between Asia and America. However, after the last age, Humans became the dominant species, and around 12,000 years ago, started agriculture, and after that formed cities, kingdoms, empires, etc. Indus Valley Civilization which predates Sanskrit and other Vedic Culture started around 5,000 years ago. Vedic Civilization around Ganges started around 3,500 years ago. Rama, if he existed in this civilization, should have been less than 5500 years old. There’s a big difference between 1,750,000 and 5,500.

And why do these idiots come up with the number 1.75 Million years? What is so magical about it?

Let me explain. Some Hindus believe that their scriptures are actual science. And according to some of these scriptures our time is divided into 4 Yugas. The first one is Satya Yuga which lasted 1.728 Million years. The second one is Treta Yuga which lasted 1.296 Million Years. The third one is Dvapara Yuga, which lasted 864,000 years. And the last is Kali Yuga which spans 432,000 years.

Lord Rama was born in Treta Yuga. He supposedly lived around early part of Treta Yuga.

And we are in Kali Yuga which started at 3102 BC.

So, if you add backwards, 2007 + 3102 + 864,000 + (2/3) of 1,296,000, you get 1.733 Million years. Voila! There it is- your magic figure! One has to understand that this number is not scientific and has no practical basis whatsoever. No other historical event was calculated using these numbers and hence could be discarded as another mythological byproduct (except for a pat on the back for coming up with such an astronomical figure for calculating age of Universe while some Abrahamic religions believed we are only 6,000 years old).


However, there are other interpretations to this date. Some smart ones have used a different calculation to arrive at 7323 BC or 5114 BC for Rama's existence making it more palatable to people who actually paid attention to their Science class instead of learning it by rote.


Isn’t literary evidence good enough?


Is Ramayan written by Valmiki good enough evidence to prove that Adam’s Bridge/Ram Sethu is a man-made construction? One should quickly ask oneself, Is Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings a good enough evidence to prove that Middle Earth exists?

Not really.


Just because Ramayana is a religious book, it does not make historical evidence.


What do we make of the same literary evidence (Ramayana) which suggests that monkeys actually built this bridge? If monkeys’ construction is to be considered a site of heritage, shouldn’t all ant-hills (which we seem to destroy so easily) be considered sites of heritage?


Conclusion

To suggest that Rama existed is a matter of belief. Whether he existed or not is irrelevant to dredging of Ram Sethu. What is important is to know if Adam’s Bridge/Ram Sethu is a man-made construction or not. All evidences suggest that it is not, expect certain quotations from mythology and some blind beliefs.

It’s like an aunt waking up in the morning and suggesting she saw Lord Krishna in her dream telling us to stop sending PSLV rockets into space because that rocket would shoot right through his heavenly abode. It’s a matter of belief. It’s a good story to tell the kids, cousins and other family members. However, a State or Government of India should not go ahead and stop sending rockets into space because it hurts an aunt’s sentiments.

Update [15 September 2007]:

Please read this article from a Geologist.

129 comments:

  1. Agreed it is not man or monkey-made bridge. But if mythology says so and majority of people believe that, why destroy it?

    Are the economic gains really so great to justify it? Does India's survival as a nation depend upon creating the shipping lane? Is this the only solution to the problem? If yes to all three, then go ahead.

    Isn't there scientific evidence that the bridge (irrespective of whether it is natural or made) can potentially protect against tsunami waves? Aren't there environmental reasons to preserve it? And why can't it be a natural wonder worth preserving, similar to the Great Barrier Reef? In your "secular" haste to piss on religionists, you completely missed such questions.
    -Chirkut

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  2. Chirkut:
    I am not sure if you are not able to understand what I write or you just want to taunt me.

    I have not discussed the economic gains, environmental factors, defense related gains, etc, and made sure I did not step on those lines while talking about this project.

    I am only talking about how blind belief indeed makes one blind and cripples one's reasoning power, holds state to ransom and then dominates the discussion without giving room to the exact factors that I did not talk about but listed above.

    I encourage us Indians to discuss these factors and not obfuscate it with religious sentiments and blind belief.

    Thank you.

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  3. Existence of Lord Buddha

    Buddha was also believed to be mythological but excavations at Piprahwa in Siddharth nahar Dist. of UP have conclusively proved beyond doubt that this very place is Kapilavastu, the birth place of Lord Buddha. The finds of the excavations which include bone remnants backed by historical texts conclusively prove that the bones belong to Buddha and some of his kins.

    When Buddha can be proved why not Rama? Only studies have to be conducted. Some work was done in Ayodhya in 1994 by the very discoverer of Kapilavastu, Mr. K.M. Srivastava, an eminent archaeologist. Unfortunately the work could not be carried further because of political reasons. Mr. Srivastava was quite convinced that if work is carried out the evidence of Rama can be proved.

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  4. Sujai, I love your article. It's brilliant, concise and factual.

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  5. Manisha:

    When Buddha can be proved why not Rama? Only studies have to be conducted.

    No matter how much we excavate we may not discover remnants of Narsimha Avatar, Vamana Avatar or Kurma Avatar. No amount of funds may prove existence of certain mythological characters, and we may just have to accept it. That does not mean we shouldn't be working towards that direction.

    After a period of time, we need to differentiate between mythological characters and real characters.

    We MAY or MAY NOT find evidences to prove existence of Rama. We have to live with eventuality that certain existences cannot be proved.

    For example, would we find evidences to suggest a bridge was built by an army of monkey? Sounds very implausible.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The mythological character especially the avatars of Vishnu are actually the evolution stages.

      1. Matsya avatar - life begun from Sea/Ocean
      2. Kurma avatar - it started moving to land (and still returns to water like amphibians)
      3. Varaha avatar - creation of wild animals
      4. Narsimha avatar - genetic changes which caused the creation of human not evolved properly like apes
      5. Parasurama - early human beings
      6. Rama - civilized human
      etc..

      Delete
    2. Yes.i agree with u.

      Delete
  6. I don't think its implausible. When dogs can be trained to guide the blind why could'nt our immediate biological predecessors be trained to build a bridge just by piling stones and boulders?

    Buddha was 25550 years back and conclusive evidences have been found which are housed in the National Museum at New Delhi. Rama was 17,00,000 years back. Only we need stalwarts like K.M. Srivastava to lead a team to prove this. Let me tell you he is a man who has the courage to call a spade, a spade. Inspite of being meted at times with very humiliating situations while in service he never bowed down to bureaucratic or political pressures.

    This is the reason he is acclaimed worldwide for his remarkable work in India as well as Cambodia.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. correction....Buddha's existance was between 563 BC and 483 BC
      You might have seen 2555 years.

      Delete
  7. Manisha:

    Buddha was 25550 years back...

    Hold your horses there. I was of the opinion I was dealing with a sane person here. You have stumped me with complete gibberish now. I am not sure what to make of the above sentences. Are you serious?

    Did you not read my article? Did you make any Google searches before you wrote this?

    Did you attend and sat through a single Science class without dozing off and wrote an exam understanding essence of Science instead of just reproducing the text memorized through rote?

    I am a bit disappointed with average IQ and scientific temperament of the people. In the last one week people have come up with bizarre notions on human history.

    When dogs can be trained to guide the blind why could'nt our immediate biological predecessors be trained to build a bridge just by piling stones and boulders?

    And why can't people combine forces with ogres, goblins and elves to fight an evil god who rides dragons?

    Well, they can! only in fantasy! I though we were discussing history here.

    Buddha was 25550 years back and conclusive evidences have been found which are housed in the National Museum at New Delhi.

    Really! I am bit surprised that Scientist worldwide have not taken a notice of this to predate our civilzations.

    Rama was 17,00,000 years back.

    :) there it comes- the magical figures of 1.7M years once again.

    Let me tell you he is a man who has the courage to call a spade, a spade.

    Looks like he is more a magician than a serious archaeologist.

    Inspite of being meted at times with very humiliating situations while in service he never bowed down to bureaucratic or political pressures.

    If he had concentrated on Science instead of fiction he may have been taken seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Great article ... i have been following the posting for some time on your blog and i will agree in matters of this kind, emotions seems to take precedence over rational arguments.

    And as an afterthought and hopefully if my meagre knowledge of hinduism is correct, then rama is supposedly some avatar of vishnu ... maybe the believers should try to focus on some avatar who probably might have left some tangible evidence. Might just make their job easier. :-)

    With reference to a post regarding training of monkeys, it will be a much easier if one knows the exact species of monkey are we considering ... chimps, baboons, macaques, orangutans etc ... as all species/sub species are known to have different intellectual capabilities with respect to imitating and/or mastering naturally occurring human skills. We don't know what species we are dealing with ... and once we do know that the next step will possibly be to determine the approximate size of boulders, stones, rocks etc they can lift and carry ... and compare their sizes to those physically occurring in the ocean. That will prove whether monkeys really carried those boulders as it is claimed.

    Hopefully our believers will be smart enough to apply some logical reasoning before they jump the gun.

    - Rational Thinker

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  9. "Buddha was 25550 years back"

    Wow that stumped me too. Lol

    ReplyDelete
  10. good article. it is unbelievable what drivel is being dished out in the newspapers and on TV, NDTV being one of the worst culprits. Even senior scientists of Geological Survey of India have given up thinking rationally and have come up with totally bizarre conclusions why the bridge is man made. Here is my criticism to that particular charge.

    Glad to read your post but not very glad to read some of the comments.

    "why could'nt our immediate biological predecessors be trained to build a bridge just by piling stones and boulders?"

    I don't see much hope for the future of science in this country!

    ReplyDelete
  11. Suvrat Kher:
    Thanks for the link. People like you need to stand up and speak for all of us.

    It is a pity that Science is on the decline in India.

    Please post your comment at Krishworld Politics as well.

    Thanks.

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  12. Buddha was 25550 years back

    Could've been a typo. 25550 instead of 2550.
    -Chirkut

    ReplyDelete
  13. Chirkut:
    Most probably it is not a typo. How does one explain the other assertion that Rama existed 1.7Million years ago? Was it a typo too?

    ReplyDelete
  14. According Manusmirti Calender is as under ( Chapter 1 Shloka 69,70,71)
    Satya Yug 4800 years
    Treta Yug 3600 "
    Dwapar yug 2400 "
    Kali yug 1200 "

    Ramayan may not be older tan 3500 years.
    Nal built the Setu on existing shallow structures using floating logs ( May be coconut trees) which may have been washed away during all these years. The monkeys were not monkeys but men with negroid features.) Ram was the first north Indian to travel down south. and Hanuman the first south Indian to travel north who evetually became god himself along with Ram.

    Vishwas

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  15. "The monkeys were not monkeys but men with negroid features"

    Really, negroid features 3500 ago? Take a lesson in evolution

    "Ram was the first north Indian to travel down south."

    Apart from the ramayana, is there any shred of evidence for that? It's a rhetorical question. The answer is NO.

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  16. Dear Sujai,
    Could you answer a simple question? Who is the creator of Dev language Sanskrit? It is so perfect, even NASA says it is best for programming in computers. So many words of english are similar to Sanskrit.
    Deepak
    city@bol.net.in

    ReplyDelete
  17. Sujai uwach - No matter how much we excavate we may not discover remnants of Narsimha Avatar, Vamana Avatar or Kurma Avatar. No amount of funds may prove existence of certain mythological characters, and we may just have to accept it.

    Sujai my dear friend you will be surprised to know the advances in biotech which are just starting to unravel. For starters read Freeman Dyson's paper on biotech. After you know what is happening in the labs right now, this Narsimha avatar looks so very possible and easy.

    Sujai uwach: I am only talking about how blind belief indeed makes one blind and cripples one's reasoning power, holds state to ransom and then dominates the discussion without giving room to the exact factors

    Before you make these big claims or announce "your belief" for others you need to Google enough too. And BTW, even if Google is God, Google also does not have ALL the information, they are still trying to digitize most of it. Hope your blind belief on atheism does not cripple your reasing power and not make you ignore the important environmental concerns, just because you blindly want to rebuke one particular belief.

    Here are some excerpts from the article -

    Our Biotech Future
    By Freeman Dyson

    "Every orchid or rose or lizard or snake is the work of a dedicated and skilled breeder. There are thousands of people, amateurs and professionals, who devote their lives to this business. Now imagine what will happen when the tools of genetic engineering become accessible to these people. There will be do-it-yourself kits for gardeners who will use genetic engineering to breed new varieties of roses and orchids. Also kits for lovers of pigeons and parrots and lizards and snakes to breed new varieties of pets. Breeders of dogs and cats will have their kits too.

    Few of the new creations will be masterpieces, but a great many will bring joy to their creators and variety to our fauna and flora. The final step in the domestication of biotechnology will be biotech games, designed like computer games for children down to kindergarten age but played with real eggs and seeds rather than with images on a screen. Playing such games, kids will acquire an intimate feeling for the organisms that they are growing. The winner could be the kid whose seed grows the prickliest cactus, or the kid whose egg hatches the cutest dinosaur. These games will be messy and possibly dangerous. Rules and regulations will be needed to make sure that our kids do not endanger themselves and others. The dangers of biotechnology are real and serious."

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  18. regardless of whether or not sethusamudram was manmade or not, going ahead with the project involves destruction of one of the world's most significant marine ecosystems. while the rest of the world is clamouring to save their heritage, there are people in india who want to destroy their mythological past in the name of being 'modern'.

    why does it always boil down to criticising hinduism? i like that i have a past, mythical or otherwise. whether or not i believe in rama, i do find my identity entwined with my birthplace. i'll be damned if i have to give it up to claim pseudo validation.

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  19. Sujay,

    while your rationality about the bridge is commendable, what baffles me is that you are not able to think broad. You seem to come from a school of thought that progress is linear which is not true. You also seem to have a sense of irritation towards people who dont agree with you.

    When can train dogs to sniff luggages at air-ports, why do you think that in some ancient time, man would not have been able to train some other living species to assist him, for instance in bridge building?

    You talk about 'blind beliefs', but how sure are you that your beliefs is the 'truth'? or it just that your ideologies have blinded you?

    Believe me son, science and religion can coexist and on some occassions, are one and the same. By the way, iam a scientist(a junior scientist as of now) as well, but i don't do science just for the sake of science alone. I do science for the sake of the Universe which is my home and god. The Universe is based on balanced parameters and not extreme ones.

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous:
    You have to leave your name.

    Maybe, I will soon start rejecting comments who do not write their names.

    You seem to come from a school of thought that progress is linear which is not true.

    A person who has expressed rationality would not expect progress to be linear. I don't believe progress is linear.

    You also seem to have a sense of irritation towards people who dont agree with you.

    I get irritated by idiocy - a lot actually. I am completely deluged by such idiocy here. Sometime its suffocated me - there is so much of it!

    Take a fool, educate him, what you get is an educated fool. I see many out here.

    When can train dogs to sniff luggages at air-ports, why do you think that in some ancient time, man would not have been able to train some other living species to assist him, for instance in bridge building?

    Also, expect to train that living species to fly to another island, burn it up with its tail, lift mountains, etc?

    Thank you, but I will confine my imagination to fiction!

    See, what I am talking about? Now, you know why I get irritated?

    You talk about 'blind beliefs', but how sure are you that your beliefs is the 'truth'? or it just that your ideologies have blinded you?

    :)

    Nice try!

    I never asked people to accept my opinions without questioning. All I am saying is - let there be a rational debate on Ram Sethu - on banning books - on banning movies.

    For example, some people lynched a library because it contained a book critical of Ram. Yesterday some people attacked Karunanidhi's daughter's house for his remarks on Ram, and then went on to torch a bus killing two people! :)

    That, Mr. Anonymous, I am talking about here! That, I don't see is a rational discussion!

    Believe me son,

    Don't patronize me.

    Do you even have slightest idea what an insult that is to me?

    Please refrain from such insults next time.

    science and religion can coexist and on some occassions, are one and the same.

    :) really? Don't you realize that I am exactly fighting that idea here?

    By the way, iam a scientist(a junior scientist as of now) as well,

    Now, I realize why our Science is on Decline :)

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  21. after reading your response to 'anonymous' and several of your previous posts, i am truly bewildered..you seem to lack a fundamental grasp of logic or critical thinking..or rules of "rational" debate..in popperian format of debate, both sides would be required to submit arguments, present questions, offer rebuttals and conclude.

    honestly, i am stumped by the mushrooming of all these blogs with (necessary)interesting points of view..unfortunately, there is no forum for discussion or debate because of a lack of knowledge of debating. maybe it is a failure of the indian school system that no longer teaches formal logic or debating skills to the students. i read. i *shrug*. sometimes, i comment. but at the end of the day, it is a futile and not a terribly fruitful exercise because it can only get interesting or informative if both parties know the rules of communication and share the same access to resources. the internet has made things complicated indeed. i can see how this topic(and many of your other blogposts) can be good fodder for a healthy and robust..not to mention informative and enlightening debate. more the pity...

    for what it is worth..there is NO need for a rational debate about rama sethu. it supports the beliefs of people who hold a different sort of faith than you do. the problem with arguments like yours is that there is a failure to recognise that are two sides to a coin. when you question the right of the faithful to practice their beliefs, you endager your rights(and mine) as an atheist. afterall, how difficult will it be to be in your shoes?

    for every atheist who says that a theist is unable to prove his 'God', there is a fundie who wants the atheist to prove 'evolution'. at the end of the day, no matter how you twist it..evolution, too, is only a theory. sure, it is a theory that i rather like, but it too cannot be proved.

    so..what IS your point? except, i suppose, the one that mentioned earlier..that you'd like to bash hinduism because you are a hindu.

    had there been more 'rational' tinkerers like you, we would have no sistine chapel or the stonehenge or.."fill in the blank".

    good luck.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Jellicles:

    You don't seem to get it. And I am quite sure even if I write thousand lines here you will not get it.

    maybe it is a failure of the indian school system that no longer teaches formal logic or debating skills to the students.

    Absolutely! Good Premise!

    there is NO need for a rational debate about rama sethu.

    Interesting premise- that there is no formal education on debate, and then some gibberish, and then completely ridiculous conclusion that there is NO need for a rational debate on Rama Sethu.

    Wow! Now, you know why I believe that idiocy is on the rise.

    We are witnessing 'celebration of idiocy' nowadays.

    it supports the beliefs of people who hold a different sort of faith than you do.

    Look, don't exhaust me. I get comments from all kinds of idiots. I have a disdain for idiocy. Don't get me wrong there.

    I am all for your right to practice your idiocy- I mean you religion. I will not tell you to stop praying. I will not tell you to stop believing in god. If you think your aunt is the incarnation of Goddess Durga, so be it. Pray to her everyday. If she tells you that in her dream Krishna asked you not to go overseas, please abide by it.

    But, please don't bring such belief systems to impose it onto us! Just because your aunt dreamt something don't stop our PSLV launches.

    That's the stance I take on this forum.

    You have the right to be an idiot. I will be a champion to defend that right of yours. But please don't expect me to be an idiot, and don't bring that idiocy and make it a state policy

    One of the biggest religions on the planet is founded on the 'myth' that a virgin gave birth to a child. Good for them.

    But in a court of law, if a lady argues that a man X cannot be the father of her child because she gave birth as a virgin! :)
    The court would not believe it!

    Why so?

    Even though we believe it was applicable to Virgin Mary, we don't believe it could be applicable to this lady here.

    :)

    That's what we are talking about on this forum.

    You are entitled to believe that Rama built the bridge. No problems, keep your belief to yourself. But please don't bring it to make a state policy. Please don't go and burn a library because someone criticized Rama!

    You have a right to believe idiocy and we have a right to question that idiocy, and don't impose that idiocy onto us.

    afterall, how difficult will it be to be in your shoes?

    Don't even try to be in my shoes! :) Your brain will not be able to handle the intelligence! :)

    evolution, too, is only a theory.

    Another slogan from idiots. They keep repeating this again and again till it becomes the truth, right?
    I mean that's how you made you religions true!

    so..what IS your point?

    Read above.
    Keep idiocy to yourself

    had there been more 'rational' tinkerers like you, we would have no sistine chapel or the stonehenge or.."fill in the blank".

    We would then have Theory of Gravity, Theory of Relativity, We would have electricity, magnetism, we would then have medicine to cure you of your illness. We would then have Wireless, we would then have transport.

    We would then have individual rights. Rights to women, Rights to people of all ethnicities, a democracy based in justice for all. A society which can tolerate many religions, many belief systems, rule of law where all citizens are equal. :)

    If we went your way, we would have Insurrection, impaling, torture, public hanging, Crusades, just because the other guy thought different.

    No thanks, I prefer my way! :)

    good luck.

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  23. Really, idiocy is on the rise :-) - All the way. Theory of the celebration of idiocy ;-).

    There is a thin line between miracles like virgin mary and narasimha avatar and that is called experimentation and it only takes some time before biotech, nanotech and robotics make those miracles happen ;-)

    Why do so many scientists "believe" in prayer and meditation? Because - they "know" and they make these miracles happen.

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  24. Well check info I just read on wikipedia. I never knew this.

    Ram sethu actually has an Islamic/Abrahamic history too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_sethu

    It says 'According to an Islamic account, Adam used the bridge to reach Adam's Peak in Sri Lanka, where he stood repentant on one foot for 1,000 years, leaving a large hollow mark resembling a foot print. Both the peak and the bridge are named after this legend.'

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  25. So Muslims and Hindus can join hands and fight together.

    There's a news item in THE HINDU

    Where Some Urdu writers sympathize with Hindus on Ram Sethu Issue.

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  26. hmm....from your rant about my "idiocy"..and evoking "theory of relativity" .."theory of gravity" and throwing in the virgin birth for good measure..i cant help but wonder about your educational background.

    you are garnering a lot of attention through this blog. it will all be positive if you read some classical physics...a flip through joseph campbell's power of myth wont hurt you either.

    honestly, i dont know what else to say. take care.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Every great civilization in the world knows well how to respect their religion and their Gods, but Hindu is the only religion who do not respect their Gods in the name of secularism. Any politician cannot dare to say same thing about any other religion, what the Congress party said in its affidavit-that Ram does not exist ever. This is the only Hindu religion that from the last 500-700 years is beaten by the outsiders, because we were not united. We the Hindus respect so called Mahatma-Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi about whom it is said-DE DI HAMEIN AZADI BINA KHADAG BINA DHAAL, SABARMATI KE SANT TOONE KAR DIYA KAMAL, when 1 million Hindus were killed in the riots, at the time of partition.
    The communities who can’t respect their own religion, than an outsider will also not give respect to it. Ours is the oldest religion on this planet Earth. But the education system formed by the British agent Macalle, does not teach respect for our own religion. In our schools, history of Moughal period, Hadappa, Mohanjodaro is taught to us, but the great Ved-Purans, Yog, Ayurved, Ramayan, Gita etc. could not taught to us because we are secular. In the Ved-Purans, written back lakhs of years ago there is the description of smallest form of particle atom when western countries even do not know wearing clothes. There is written the smallest and biggest form of time. There is also the description of how the universe was formed, its size and how it will came to end and this matches with the modern theory. Some 500-700 years it was believed by the west that earth is at the center of universe and Sun moves around the Earth, and much before that our Ved-Purans were in existence. We taught west the value and use of “0” Shunya. We have the best scientific language of the world-Sanskrit. Some 2000-3000 years ago there was only one religion that was Sanatan dharma, all other religion just as Christianity, Islam and other religion of the world evolve from this Sanatan dharma-Now a days which is called Hindu dharma.
    At present only 15% of this literature (Ved-Purans Etc.) is left with us. For young generation carrier, entertainment and relationship are the issues on which they talk and are interested.
    Do you ever think that why we the country of 100 crores needs to import mobile phones, televisions and even other small electronic items from other countries? Did you thought ever why we need to fulfill our defense requirements from smaller countries like Israel and Sweden?
    Our education system, corrupt bureaucrats and politicians are responsible for this. There are bomb blast everywhere in the country, the police system is totally failed, no roads, no water and no proper sewerage system. Politicians are filling their bank accounts with money. The total political system, education system is responsible for this.
    Now I come to the main point that now a days there is discussion in our country whether to break the Ram Sethu or not. I want to told you that at the first news came out from the NASA some years before, it was clearly said by them that this setu is built by the humans and it is more than 1.7 million years old. Now NASA is denying the fact, this may be the political pressure from Indian Govt. I say-forget NASA, it is well described in our Ved Purans, Valmiki Ramayan, Ramcharitmans and Vishnu Puran etc. These are our Ved Purans in which there is a description of the river Sarswati. It is proven from the satellite images too, that there was a time when sarswati river exist on this Dev bhoomi bharat. If the young generation could read Ramayan, there is the detailed description how the sethu was built.

    Continued…………

    Deepak

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  28. Good work!Please throw some light on Bible also.

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  29. soma sekhar:

    I would like some Christians to take up that job. Actually big names like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are already doing it!

    ReplyDelete
  30. Ram Vimukh Us Haal Tumahara, Raha Na Koi Kul Rovanhara-This same thing is going to happen with Congress Party.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not murder”, and we Hindus are on the path of suicide, by not respecting our own religion.
    You can check the detailed description of Lanka war and the building of SRI RAM SETHU on the link below, in Yudh Kand.

    http://www.geocities.com/bhagvatjee/vraamaayan/index.htm

    The department of Earth science of the government of India in a report to the president to India has stated that shoal stones placement makes out that they were ‘deliberately placed there’. That is, as if it was constructed in the manner described by the Sage Valmiki in Valmiki Ramayan.
    The main reason behind this whole episode is that every player in this match hitting his own goals. DMK the main player in the field is the strong supporter of LTTE. They want to help LTTE, who after the removal of the Sri Ram Sethu would have a free passage in and around India & Sri Lanka. Removal of the Ram Sethu would make this area an International passage, and will raise security concerns in the coming years. Tsunami can also destroy the coastal areas, in absence of Sri Ram Sethu. There is a huge reservoir of Thorium in this area, and after possible removal of Sri Ram Sethu, India will lose this asset. Recently, Sonia Gandhi, leader of Congress party visited Rameshwaram and attended the inauguration ceremony of Sethusamudram Canal project with Dr Manmohan Singh, T.R.Balu and Karunanidhi. They chalked out a plan to destroy the Sri Ram Sethu. Sonia is an outsider and she cannot understand the importance of Sri Ram in our culture and in our heart. Her drive is controlled through Vatican City.
    One fact I want to share with you, that most of the people do not know the real scene behind the drama when Dr Manmohan Singh became the Prime Minister of India some years before. At that time it was shown to the innocent & unknown people of India, that Smt Sonia don’t want to be the Prime Minister of India and she refused the chair of Prime Minister. But in fact the three Army chiefs of Indian army opposed the candidature of Smt Sonia Gandhi, as they don’t want any person of foreign origin to reach the sensitive files and share the sensitive information of High office. The then president Dr Abdul Kalam Azad also supported this. This was the reason that Congress party opposed the candidature of Dr Kalam as president in the second term.
    This is also the reason that a unknown person Smt Pratibha Patil was chosen by Smt Sonia Gandhi to be the next President of India. So she cannot oppose the idea of Smt Sonia Gandhi becoming next Prime Minister of India. Smt Sonia Gandhi is in a hurry to become the next Prime Minister of India, so most probably mid term elections are going to be held very soon.
    The late Pope John Paul visited India twice and on both the occasions he said, “we want to make Asia a Christian subcontinent and our mission begins from India”. Sonia is having the same mentality, and she has no faith in our culture and our history. Our freedom fighters surrender their lives to oust the foreigners, but Congress party is appointing another foreigner to the high chair of Indian offices.
    Sri Lanka is also opposing this project but being a small nation its concerns has no value in the mind of our politicians.
    The Sri Ram Sethu is the only wonder on this planet earth. Some parts of sea at that time were 20m to 200m deep. To build the Sri Ram Sethu those places were filled by the Vanar Sena. Sri Ram Sethu is more than 5km of width and more than 60 km long according to some literature.

    So, the young generation like us has to be stood in the interest of Sri Ram Sethu and to save our culture and history which is the oldest on this planet earth.

    Deepak

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  31. This sort of "natural mounts connecting an island with the near by land" can be seen in many places around the world

    Little wonder who built them

    For a start, see Australia and Papua New Guinea

    ReplyDelete
  32. Which religion is free of miracles and myth? Somehow, we Indians love referring to our religion as Hindu mytholgy. Ever heard a Christin or a Muslim talk of Christian and Islamic mythology, respectively?

    Do read my two posts on my blog
    www.vinodksharma.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
  33. See the two Example how the Indians were well advance in science & technology from rest of the world. Below are the facts copied from Wikipedia. Some people are calling Ramayan a myth. The use of Zero and the concept of Atom were written well before in our VED-PURAN.

    (1) Early use of something like zero by the Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5th-2nd century BC), implied at first glance by his use of binary numbers, is only the modern binary representation using 0 and 1 applied to Pingala's binary system, which used short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code.[3][4] Nevertheless, he and other Indian scholars at the time used the Sanskrit word śūnya (the origin of the word zero after a series of transliterations and a literal translation) to refer to zero or void.[5]


    (2) The idea that matter is composed of discrete units and can not be divided into any arbitrarily tiny or small quantities has been around for thousands of years. The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to ancient India in the 6th century BCE. [3]. The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects (first in pairs, then trios of pairs) [4]. The references to atoms in West, emerge a century later by Leucippus.

    Deepak

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  34. a simple question and a conclusion

    Hanuman blew up in size to bring an entire mountain because he didn the exact herb on that mountain.

    then he flew to himalay from sri lanka and back.

    Question:

    couldnt he blow up in size and take ram and his army , so there would have been no need to build the setu at all

    Conclusion:

    the ramayan may be true , but not all that is wrtten is true. many things are exaggerated over the centuries.

    constructing the bandra worli seaface has taken more than 3 years. how can the setu have been built in 5 days?? this is something even retards will understand, but not some humans

    ReplyDelete
  35. you lot really dont understand mythology. islam and xianity doesnt have mythology? what?? if anyone, it is you who are taking mythology literally. a fundamental atheist, maybe..if there can be such a thing.

    here is another book recommendation: golden bough by frazer. in fact, there is an online version.

    on archetypal literary criticism

    Power of Mythby Joseph Campbell (also his other works)

    please..this is embarassing..if this is the "rational" educated voice of india criticising religion and the influence of mythology in india, there needs to be more done..forget about science. science has nothing to do with religion. if this was so, one would assume that all eminent scientists are godless heathens.

    ReplyDelete
  36. there is no problem with mythology (be it from any religion). But there is a problem when mythology becomes a hindrance to a sane project for the development of our country

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  37. phreak..it is not the mythology that is a 'hindrance' to the development of india. i would say the 'development project' is a hindrance to the fragile environmental treasure and the historical and cultural venues(man made or not is not the point) of india.

    rama sethu is ancient and unique. there is no question about this.it is also important to a lot of indians from a mythological, religious and sentimental point of view. and we are going to get rid of this for what?

    a question: all those who are in favour of the rama sethu project, have you ever seen it? any of you been there?

    secondly, after the whole lot of you have understood the real relevance of mythology and the meaning of 'tolerance'...please ponder upon your rants about 'science'..what is scientific about the developmental project at this venue? thirdly, is everyone of those who are steeped, soaked and macerating in science any less nasty than some of the extremist religious nutcases?

    religion doesnt spring because of a lack of scientific temperament. neither does extremism. or superstition. it might surprise some of you scientific types to know that there is a theory that god(as is language and art)has a neural basis. those in the throes of religiousity may actually be hardwired for piousness. to discriminate against them is akin to discriminating against people of a different colour or against those who are handicapped. i'd like to ask those who drone on and on and on..ad nauseum, ad infinitum..about evolution to really take the time to READ about the evolution of the human animal. if religiousity is a coping mechanism(among other things) that human animals have developed as a evolutionarily stable strategy to remain and survive as social animals within a social structure bolstered by beliefs, morals, values, culture, mythology etc), it is valid and necessary. to challenge or threaten that is the undoing of thousands of years of human evolution.

    it is easy to drop the word 'science' as if its utterance makes one more scientific..understanding and embracing it is a tad more difficult.

    ReplyDelete
  38. p.s. i am setting up a new OS and my touchpad sensitivity is rather high..hence sentences jump and some words get deleted. grammatical mistakes and spelling errors are entirely due to my own carelessness. i trust the previous post was easy to read. if not, ask for clarifications.

    ReplyDelete
  39. The real issue here is that the existence of Ram is being questioned and this has caught many off-guard. You can see this in the statement made by Rajnath, BJP chief; "From Aurangzeb to Angrez (the British), no foreign ruler dared to question Ram’s existence"

    As a matter of fact Christianity has faced constant attacks from the time of Christ and it has stood the test of time.

    If Ram is real as many Hindus believe then they have nothing to fear.

    I will quote this passage made by a wise man who was with the group that was against Christ.

    "Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.
    And he said to them: "Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men.
    For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men about four hundred joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing.
    After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed.
    And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;
    but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it - lest you even be found to fight against God" Acts 5:34-39

    As you can see I am a Christian and I am not concerned with what lies others may say about Christ. They may say He is a myth or that He married and had children. But as far as I am concerned He is the Son of God.

    Every person of faith has to go through this faith battle whether it be a Hindu, Muslim or Christian, and I am glad I am a Christian.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "rama sethu is ancient and unique. there is no question about this.it is also important to a lot of indians from a mythological, religious and sentimental point of view."

    This is complete lie.

    I grew up as a religious Hindu but I never heard or saw anyone worshipping this "bridge" ever. I went to Rameshwaram in year 2000 and must have spoken to at least a dozen panda-s. None of them were aware of the existence of "Rama sethu" as a physical structure in the sea behind their courtyard wall. This structure was known to mariners since late 1800s. If it was identified with "Rama Sethu", how come it never caught hindu imagination?

    The "discovery" of this structure as "Rama Sethu" and hype created around this is very recent - hardly 3-4 years old.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I think Anonymous has echoed what all believers in their God feel. I does not matter what who says: your faith alone matters. And faith needs to be respected, whether Hindu or Christian or Muslim. None can stand the scrutiny of science...maybe the limitation is of science, which might be able to unravel and understand the truth of many 'mythical' stories at a later stage of its own development.

    The only problem I have with faith is the intolerant and, therefore, violent rejection of other faiths as false. Christians say Jesus is God. Then, after a millennium, God again reveals himself through Angel Gabriel to the Prophet as Allah and says that Jesus was just another messiah, not God or Son of God, and that Christians and idol worshipers are not following the way of God! Why did God the Supreme not get everything right the first time? Result? Repeated violent and cruel wars of faith between the two religions having the same root.

    Do read my posts on Ram Setu and the older one about Competing Gods in my blog
    www.vinodksharma.blogspot.com

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  42. vivek behal said:" This is complete lie.
    [..]
    The "discovery" of this structure as "Rama Sethu" and hype created around this is very recent - hardly 3-4 years old."


    oh..this is rich! rama sethu is hype created in the past 3-4 years?

    just off the top of my head, in the 17th century, that region of ramanad and sivagangai were ruled by the SETHUPATHIS...get it??? SETHUpathis were the protectors of all the pilgrims who visited SETHUSAMUDRAM and rameswaram appointed by the nayaka kings.

    hype in the past 3-4 years..hah!! sheesh!! you are really something. please go on..it is amusing to see how far certain people will dig deeper and deeper to bury themselves in the pit of ignorance and intolerance.

    please..please stay FAR away science.

    ReplyDelete
  43. These days people are comparing science with religion or mythology. What is science? Science is just a conclusion of some experiments done by an individual or a group of scientists. One day a scientist says some thing and another day some other scientist says some another thing; if the conclusion of experiment is differ. Scientist are not even fully aware of Human body, forget about God and Universe. These are the scientists who are responsible for Global Warming, by burning fossil fuel. Only in a span of less than 100 years, the whole fuel is spent and they have polluted our planet Earth. These are the scientists who are responsible for more destruction than creation. Millions and billions of money is being spent on the weapons of mass destruction such as Atom & Plutonium bomb, rather than solving Mankind problems. These scientists had invented mobile phones, which will be a cause of cancer and brain tumor in the coming years. These scientists are playing with the Genetic Code of Plants and Human Beings; God knows what will happen in future. No place for mental peace in the world of this science.
    I am not against science and scientist, but there should be limited and thoughtful use of technology. The rational people of west are practicing Yog, a part of our Ved-Puran, which is being called myth, and our own people are making a joke of their own culture.
    Now come to mythology, what is mythology? This word of English has been taken from the language of a religion, who’s past or history is being called mythology, by the so called rationalists of modern science. The original Sanskrit word is ‘Mithya’ from which the word ‘Myth’ or ‘Mythology’ originates.
    Most recently some scientist came to know that giant Lizard (a kind of reptile), was laying eggs without mating, or say without sex. These types of incidents had been described in Ved-Purans.

    Deepak

    ReplyDelete
  44. These days people are comparing science with religion or mythology. What is science? Science is just a conclusion of some experiments done by individual or group of scientist. One day a group of scientist says some thing and another day some other scientist says some another thing; if the conclusion of experiment is differ. Scientist are not even aware of Human body, forget about God and Universe. These are the scientists who are responsible for Global Warming, by burning fossil fuel. Only in a span of less than 100 years, the whole fuel is spent and they have polluted our planet Earth. These are the scientists who are responsible for more destruction than creation. Millions and billions of money is being spent on the weapons of mass destruction such as Atom & Plutonium bomb, rather than solving Mankind problems. These scientists had invented mobile phones, which will be a cause of cancer and brain tumor in the coming years. These scientists are playing with the Genetic Code of Plants and Human Beings; God knows what will happen in future.
    I am not against science and scientist, but there should be the limited use of technology. The rationalist’s countries of west are now practicing Yog, which is a part of our Ved-Puran.
    Most recently some scientist came to know that a type of dragon lizard laid eggs without mating, or say without sex. What does this mean? How science will describe it.
    Now come to mythology, what is mythology? This word of English has been taken from the language of a religion, who’s past or history is being called mythology, these days, by the so called rationalists of modern science. The original Sanskrit word is ‘Mithya’ from which the word ‘Myth’ or ‘Mythology’ originates.

    Deepak

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  45. Deepak:

    Are you for real or you are some hindu-hater who has taken this identity to make hindus look stupid?

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  46. A nice article. You have shown amazing amount of zest in putting the thought as well as in explaining to people the meaning to rational thinking.
    I am compelled to add your blog to my favorites. Let me know about other like minded people. Promotion of scientific temper appears to be a hopeless task if one tries to do it alone.

    ReplyDelete
  47. My observation on your below statement:

    'The petitioners protesting the dredging of Adam’s Bridge/Ram Sethu have suggested that Rama has built this bridge 1.75 Million (1,750,000) years ago. That is a long time ago. The Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Humans) did not appear on this planet then. '

    How did u say that Humans did not appear on this planet then? How are you so sure about it? Suppose the universe is 16 billion years old and we consider a margin ( we will take a very small figure of say
    1/(1000*16) )of error in dates of evolution(ie arrival of fish,mamals,humans etc) as given by science then there is a possibility that these dates can be 1.75 million years or more than the present dates!!!

    Dont take Science,evolution as complete truths..Have some respect to our Itihaas,Puransa..It is also trying to say something to us like the modern science!!!

    Regards
    S BALA

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  48. SPIRITUALISM IS THE NEMESIS OF FUNDAMENTALISM

    Sujai,
    I find your articles refreshing, coming from a Hindu Brahmin family( I am totally against discrimination based on caste , yet I am mentioning my caste ,else people will

    think I am a Hindu hater).
    Being spiritual does not mean you have to follow any religion. A spiritual person is very practical , and has great respect for all : be it animate or inanimate, because

    he sees the presence of God in everything.Take example of modern day saints like Kabir or Shirdi Sai Baba - they were deeply spiritual, but they followed both Hinduism

    and Islam and were very much practical and rational thinkers.
    A spiritual person has complete faith in God, yet it is not blind faith that he/she will start believing that Ram is present in a statue or start believing a recently

    discovered formation as the bridge made by Ram( even if I accept that Ram built the bridge, he is not coming back to use it .So should we preserve it only because of

    dogmatic beliefs? In Mahabharat Krishna himself sunk Dwarka before he left his mortal body, remember?) .
    Nor will he/ she start building a temple at Ayodhya by causing bloodbath ( Did Ram or Krishna ever preached the creation of temples in their name? Did even

    Valmiki or Tulsidas advised us to do so?).
    Instead he/she will do everything with greatest sincerity,respect and love- be it removing garbage of Bangalore, cleaning toilet, polishing shoes, cooking Dal

    Makhni, practising Karate, studying Non-commutative Algebra, computer programming, listening to Jagjit Singh - perceiving all these as his prayer to the Almighty( has the

    religious fundamentalists ever heard of KarmaYoga?).
    I must confess all these ideas are not mine- much of these has been imparted by two maternel uncles of mine, who had taken Sanyas and are now Sadhus.
    Just as todays kids mug up Newton's Laws without understanding its application , todays religious bigots study scriptures ( I believe most of them are illeterates or

    worse: semi- literates) without delving deep into it ( or is Hinduism too much cryptic and not as simple as , say, The Ten Commandments and so it is being distorted? You

    may contemplate on this). It is Ram who uttered these immortal words to Lakshman:

    JANANI JANMABHUMI SWARGADAPI GARIYASI

    i.e mother and motherland are greater than the heavens.

    Anyone who comes across these lines while reading the Valmiki Ramayana should jump on his feet and do something for India instead of starting a crusade to

    build a Ram Mandir.

    I have another question: the religious fundamentalists do not think rationally- is it only because they are idiots? I do not belive it. Everyday I come across people
    : the housekeeping staff of our office, the security people , the boy in the tea-stall opposite my office- who possess average intelligence, yet think rationally. A person with

    average I.Q. is capable of rational thinking. One of my professors used to say - while an intelligent student will take one hour to understand a Research paper, a not-so-

    intelligent student will take one day to understand it- if only he keeps on thinking logically.
    I believe the cause is something else. These bigots- they are always angry at something- be it Pakistan( they equate Pakistanis with Busharraf), U.S.( they equate

    Dubya with U.S. citizen) or Muslims. This anger has clouded their rational thinking. The root cause of anger is FEAR ( again, refer to the Gita). I conclude by asking a

    question:
    WHAT ARE THESE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS SCARED OF?

    JACK ROBERTS

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  49. If Christ can re-born after being dead then Ram sethu could as well been constructed by Ram Magical figure years beack.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Read my blog to know more facts
    http://paulrajp.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
  51. Ram Setu is causing a frenzy once again but this time, it's the religious devotees, who are flocking a 'Mandir' in Patna to catch a glimpse of a 'Holy' rock.

    The 15 kg floating stone was brought from Rameshwaram and is on display in the Mahavir Mandir in Patna. The rock has caused a near stampede as devotees surrounded to catch a glimpse of the stone. Devotees believe that the rock is a fragment of what Valmiki in Ramayan had described "rocks as huge as autumn clouds", used to built the Ram Setu by Nala - the son of Vishwakarma. The rock will be on display at the temple premises everyday and while the founder of the rock says, he leaves it upto scientists to validate the authencity of the rock, loads of believers state that they need no such proof.

    "The rock will be displayed on the temple premises everyday", said temple administrator Nagendra Ojha. Standing behind the vessel, Mahavir Mandir Trust secretary Acharya Kishore Kunal added that, he had brought this "floating" stone from the Hanuman Temple at Rameshwaram.

    "I was told that during the devastating cyclone of 1964, many such floating pieces of rocks from the Ram Setu were found scattered near Rameshwaram," Kunal mentioned and also informed that, only a few of such stones are still now available in Hanuman Temple.

    Kunal, who is also administrator of Bihar Board of Religious Trusts, declared that he wished to prove nothing. However he asserted that, the fact remained that there had been such floating stones near Rameshwaram, where a bridge had been constructed by Lord Rama's army to cross the sea and reach Lanka.

    "The availability of these floating stones gives evidence to the account of Valmiki on the construction of Ram Setu, which is described in the canto XXII of the Yudha Kand of the Ramayana," Kunal opined.
    Deepak
    http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=3176

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  52. Prehistoric Event of Ramayana - Atleast 18 Milion Years.
    Stricking ways how Ancients showed the Modern people on Forces Of Universe which current day Scientists are wondering about the Universe!.

    That God in the form of Man came down to show the virtue of how Human should conduct and behave. It was Lord Rama in advent manifestation along with all the natural forces of the universe in the Tretha Yuga(2nd among 4 time spans of universe). Universal Natural forces like Mysterious " Dark Energy " which makes 75% of the Universe had manifested in human form as Lord Rama, Nature's -Wind took form of Humanam, Nature's Evolutionary Design Life force came down as Bharatha-Lord Own Brother(Sanghu-Conch), The milky way galaxy which is in form of Chakra - Mighty Disc took human form as Younger brother Satrugna, The mighty Solar Sun came down as Sugreeva and the Geo Electromagnetic Force took form of Vaali(Indra) and so on. So called "Modern" Science of the present day human begin is still trying to understand these Natural forces and they have been searching externally while the Ancient Seers of this part of world have comprehended and has left us vast knowledge, heritage monuments(like Rama Sethu) and temples to help the human being to realise the universe's Nature. They wanted us to learn the Love universe radiates and showed ways attain the blisfull state of union with natural forces. During the advent of Dark Energy/Lord Rama, It's the " Dark Matter "/Pure Love which the form of Seetha, Wife of Rama.

    Like all epic of ancient India(Bharatha) continent, Srimad Ramayana is a epic which has to be researched for such universal concepts which unifies different facts of nature.

    Dark Matter/Dark Energy of our universe has been so Mysterious not only for current day scientists but also for al the ancient seers and sages of Continent Bharatha(India). Now this Bharatha became a Sub continent merging with Jumbu(Asia). Leading to Rise of Mighty Himalayaas and this whole movement of the continent was engineered by the King Baagiratha to bring down everlasting water sources to Current day India and south east asia.

    These are very Pre Historic Events and showcasing the determination of such people. These Prehistoric events described in Valmiki Ramayana or other Puranas(Pre Historic History) like moving of Indian(Bharatha Continent) land mass, Constructing Bridge by Natural forces in human/monkey form go closely with modern day scientist findings. Like We all know Humans came from Monkeys and this is exactly reflected in prehistoric Ramayana narrating the intellectual evolution of Homosapiens from intellectual Monkeys, The Ramayana intellectual monkeys were nothing but the 33 crores(330 million) forces of energy form of natures in our universe. From Agni deva or Heat energy(Lowest form in Thermodynamics energy transformation principles) to Lord Indra - GeoElectricity(Comparatively higher form) to Highest form of Dark Energy(which is a Puzzele to many Scientists, which can be felt and never be explained off :) )

    Further The Prehistoric epics like Ramayana describes the ages of Jurassic Park Dinosaurs and descends as semi evolved after the mighty catastrophe wiping away the massive Dinosaurs population. Those survived semi intellectually evolved creatures survived until 18 million years and King of Lanka Vibhishana, Brother of Ravana, had to fight with these less intellectually evolved Dinosaurs to protect the human civilisation, which is described in Vamiki Ramayana.

    Currently age according to Kali yuga(Span of 432000 yrs) progression is 5108th year. Georgian calendar starts 3000 years later and we count today at 2007 AD, Christians Believe world was created 5000 years ago and it is partially right, Last Age ended at 5000 years ago and this world recovered from the deluge of Dwapara yuga and it was altogether creation once again. However nature choose to protect many people from Dwapara yuga to come into Kaliyuga, for that the ever lasting cycle of birth/death and in-between enjoyment should continues as it has been ALWAYS. Kaliyuga was preceded by Dwapara yuga(Span of 864000 years) which was preceded by Treta Yuga(span of 1296000) during which Advent of Dark Energy / Lord Rama Happened. !!!!!!By simple calculations the construction of Bridge (Rama Sethu) to Lanka was some time before 1869100 years. At least 18 million years its been since the Bridging of Lanka with India by the natural forces of universe in human form !!!!!!!


    Our Prehistoric EPICS are Treasure for the world capturing the advances of ancient humans and their connected living with Nature's forces. Many such People living in india has been surviving continuously thought-out there has been serious catastrophes of ancient times and passed on the knowledge/Artefacts/ monuments etc. to the modern day human civilisation, for us to learn, protect and pass it down to the civilisation that is yet to come.

    Our prehistoric text has been a bigger research tool for westerners always!, to find new technology and dominate the world. While knowing all technologies far beyond what we know, Lord Rama Dominated and ruled the seven continents of world with technology of LOVE. And in memory of Lord Rama there are artefacts across the world.


    Moment INDIA takes on ancient Indian epics seriously, India would start leading the world in technology front. I am already benefiting by and many more like me. It wont take 2020 just 2012 to realise the vision.

    RAMA BRIDGE TO LANKA WAS BUILT 18 MILLION YEARS AGO!!

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  53. Sujai,
    It is a wonderful intellectual work and I fully agree with your views expressed in the article.
    I however would like to bring up my views as a part of Indian society for a good amount of time.
    The whole issue of belief is not realistic in the Indian society. We as a society does not respond very high on issues that does not impact our personal lives. I lived in various parts of india for over three decades and have not heard people even talking about Ram Sethu with great passion. We as a society are going through major economic reconstruction and each member of the country is struggling to fit himself or herself into the huge change taking place around us.
    So primarily the whole issue of belief and religious sentiments was a creation of a section of the society with vested interests. The political class in India does not work on morals and social sentiments but on catchy campaigns for catching the attention of the public.
    We as humans across the world does not care about historical evidence for adoring a god. If I like jesus or prophet or Rama or Saibaba what is important is my belief. To keep my belief motivated I even prefer to read about the miracles which is a part of all religions. Religion is such a softspot in the human life that it cannot be measured using rational thinking.

    You are right, a section of the society mainly the political class are trying to use the unrealistic factors such as religious sentiments to drive their points and our discussion should be targeted around that.

    Believe me, I heave not heard huge protest at the incidents such as printing hindu god pictures on toilet seats in other parts of the world within India. I have not heard the Sangh Pariwar or any other group (such as the one that created ramsethu.org) even talking about it in India. This is because such issue cannot be made into a political issue.

    I appreciate your effort in bringing up a good topic for discussion.

    VENKAT

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  54. Ghanesh,

    HA HA HA.

    That's the funniest piece of nonsense I've read in ages :)

    But after the laugh, I'm sad that such people are blinded to idiocy by their religion :(

    ReplyDelete
  55. I have been observing the comments made on this blog, like many other blogs, sites and forums. And after reading almost all comments I have thought that the so called rationalists, and people with scientific temper need to be a bit more tolerent towards the beliefs of others. While it is true that some people use religion for their gains, it is also true that many educated people try to brainwash their ideologies to those who are a tad lower in IQ.

    I am providing as many details as possible regarding this project which suggest that the project doesn'the yield the benefits that the Govt and others supporting it make us to believe. And even if they are so hell bent on implementing the project the alternate ways, as one will find that the current plan or allignment has been recommended by none of the more than dozen committes that were appointed since 1860, the first time the project was envisaged by Mr.A.D.Taylor. The facts are as follows.

    First Let us take Economic issues:

    1.Many naval hydrographers and experts suggest that the project is unlikely to be financially viable or serve ships in any significant way.

    2.Mr.Balakrishnan who is associated with Indian Navy for 32 years claims that this canal does not make nautical sense. Depth envisaged for this canal is designed for ships with weight of 30000 tonnes and less. However current trend in shipping industry is to build ships with weight more than 60000 tonnes and tankers with weight above 150000 tonnes. Most of the new generation ships cannot make use of this canal. According to Mr.Balakrishnan new channel is expected to bring down nautical mile from 1298 nm to 1098nm for Kolkata to Tuticorn which is much lesser than government expectations.

    3.The cost of debt financing has currently been factored in with an Indian rupee loan at 8 per cent and a US dollar loan at 4 per cent. While this might have been true at the time of writing the DPR, interest rates are today significantly higher than what was factored in the DPR. The prime lending rate for the US dollar is around 8 per cent, while the comparable benchmark in India is around 13 per cent. The cost of credit has been significantly underestimated and if current figures are used, the project is likely to constantly drain the Indian economy.

    4.The saving as calculated by the DPR for a 20,000 DWT ship will give a canal tariff of around $ 8,981. On average, non-coastal ships, that constitute 70 per cent of the projected users, will lose $ 4,992.1 if they use the canal at the current tariff structure.

    5. The study conducted for maintainance dredging was conducted on Indian side of coast only, the Sri lankan side of coast was completly ignored. This could increase the maintainance cost considerably.

    For complete report visit http://www.epw.org.in/epw/uploads/articles/10823.pdf

    Environmental Issues

    1.The dredging of the Palk Strait and the Gulf of Mannar, by modifying habitats, could affect the ecology of the zone by changing currents. This could

    a. Cause changes in temperature, salinity, turbidity and flow of nutrients

    b. Cause oilspills from ship and other marine pollution to reach the coastal areas and specifically the sensitive ecosystems of the Gulf of Mannar Marine National Park.

    c. Lead to higher tides and to more energetic waves, and hence to coastal erosion.

    d. Affect the local sea temperature and thereby alter the pattern of sea-breezes and hence affect rainfall patterns.

    e. Dredging the canal would stir up sediment the dust and toxins that lie beneath the sea bed, smothering corals and affecting marine life.

    f. The emptying of bilge water from ships travelling through the hitherto impassable areas could diperse invasive species through the ecosystems of the area.

    g. These effects could endanger precious marine species and biodiversity. The Gulf of Mannar has 3,600 species of plants and animals and is India's biologically richest coastal region. Mammal species which abound in the area are sperm whales, dolphins and dugongs. The Gulf of Mannar is especially known for its corals: the portion in Indian territorial waters has 117 species of corals, belonging to 37 genera. Associated with these ecosystems are many varieties of fish and crustaceans. Marine life on the Sri Lankan side, which is better protected, is even richer. The Bar Reef off the Kalpitiya peninsular alone has 156 species of coral and 283 of fish; there are two other coral reef systems around Mannar and Jaffna. There are extensive banks of oysters, as well as Indian Chank and Sea Cucumbers, especially in the seas adjacent to Mannar. The pearl fisheries south of Mannar, which inspired Georges Bizet's opera Les Pêcheurs de Perles, have not been productive for many years, indicating the fragility of these ecosystems in the face of overfishing and of relatively minor changes in the habitat. Despite these concerns, official environmental clearance has been given for the project.

    2. The Environmental Impact Assessment carried out by the Indian government was done by a body inexperienced in projects of this nature, was insufficiently detailed and did not consult with all the stakeholders, which included the government and people on the southern side of the proposed project.

    3. No proper survey has been carried out of the sea bed to be dredged

    4. No proper scientific modelling of the effects of the project has been carried out.

    After environmental objections were made in Sri Lanka, the Indian government decided to carry out modelling, but this had not been done before clearance had already been given for the project. A modelling exercise carried out by Sri Lanka's National Aquatic Resources Research and Development Agency (NARA) indicated that the project would increase the water flow from the Bay of Bengal to the Gulf of Mannar, disturbing the inland water balance as well as the ecosystems in the Gulf. There have also been judicial observations against this project.

    Political

    The underdeveloped region of Northern Srilanka, which forms the coast line of this project on the Srilankan side, is currently occupied by LTTE. Sethusamudram project could potentially allow economic benefits to this region. This is being viewed with mutual suspsicon of both Sri Lankan and Tamil leaders.

    Committees & Project reports.

    Opposition parties are demanding implementation of Sethusamudram canal project using one of the 5 alternative alignments considered by Government earlier without damaging Ramsetu structure. Government has constituted 9 committees before Independence and 5 committees after independence. Most of the committees suggested land based alignment across Rameswaram island. None of them have suggested alignment across Adams Bridge or Rama Setu. Current alignment is planned as Mid-ocean channel which is unprecedented. Other famous shipping canal projects like Suez Canal and Panama Canal projects are land based channels.[http://sethusamudram.gov.in/History.asp

    These are a few facts that I could gather. I didn'the want to venture into the religious aspect without first attemting to place the other issues. Now after one goes trough all the facts, they are not my opinion, and I have provided links for almost all the postings, I would like to comment on the issue of religion. Rather I would not, but I would like to quote some excerpts from an article published in 'Time' about a man who has been elected as the 'Man of the century', and who is considered as one the greatest scientists ever, Albert Einstein.

    Excerpts from the article:

    Science can be created only by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding," he said. "This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion."

    But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained.In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful. "The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."

    "Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.

    To what extent are you influenced by Christianity? "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."
    You accept the historical existence of Jesus? "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

    Do you believe in God? "I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

    Despite his parents' secularism, or perhaps because of it, Einstein rather suddenly developed a passionate zeal for Judaism. "He was so fervent in his feelings that, on his own, he observed Jewish religious strictures in every detail," his sister recalled. He ate no pork, kept kosher and obeyed the strictures of the Sabbath. He even composed his own hymns, which he sang to himself as he walked home from school.

    The realm of science, he said, was to ascertain what was the case, but not evaluate human thoughts and actions about what should be the case. Religion had the reverse mandate.

    These are only some excerpts from the article. If you want the complete article you can read it here http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298-1,00.html

    The German Kantian philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer designates this 'inner nature' with the term 'Will', and suggests that science and mathematics are unable to penetrate beyond the relationship between one thing and another in order to explain the 'inner nature' of the thing itself, independent of any external causal relationships with other 'things'.[12] Schopenhauer also points towards this inherently relativistic nature of mathematics and conventional science in his formulation of the 'World as Will'. By defining a thing solely in terms of its external relationships or effects we only find its external, or explicit nature. On the other hand the nature of the 'thing-in-itself' is often accomplished through direct perceptual awareness, known as mysticism.

    The occultist Aleister Crowley likens the approach of conventional science to the process of measuring ten yards with a stick about which we really know nothing but that it is one tenth of the ten yards in question. Every "fact" we hold true of the physical universe is merely an idea stated in relationship to other ideas, and if we try to establish any such "fact" in absolute terms we find it is impossible. If A is defined as BC, where B is DE, C is FG and so onwards the terms of dependency increase exponentially, and we even come to the point where Z is circularly defined in terms of A.




    And a small suggestion, a person who thinks he/she is educated, rational annd has scientific temper should also have enough tolerance towards the ideologies and beliefs of others. It doesn't augur well for this society, when such persons call others Idiots and their beliefs as Idiocy. In the same vien I appeal to all those who believe in God, don't make him a political issue. Faith doesn'the need evedence. Lastly a small example:

    This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe. Does evil exist?

    The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
    A student bravely replied yes, he did!"
    "God created everything?" The professor asked.
    "Yes, sir," the student replied.
    The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
    The student became quiet before such an answer.
    The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
    Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.
    The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
    The professor responded, "Of course it does".
    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
    Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"
    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
    The professor sat down.

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  56. Vamsi:

    Despite your long post, you have simply missed the rationalists' point of view.

    Who says there are no good economic, political, social, and environmental reasons to ooppose Rama Sethu? Just like every other project, Rama Sethu will also have its pros and cons. The point, however is, that the opponents of the project are primarily motivated by an obscurantist cause, not the others that you mentioned. Other issues have been added as an afterthought. Rationalists' have no argument against the issues you have mentioned above. In fact they would like debate on these very points. Their only plea is that the issue should not be decided based on obscurantist' miserable attempts to hijack the issue. If socio-economic and environmental issues weigh in favor of stalling this project, I am all for it.

    Secondly, you do not prove anything from Einstein's example. Even the most die-hard atheists have feelings of awe, wonder and humility in front of the mighty forces of nature. Some, like Einstein, called it spirituality. However, this "spirituality" has nothing in common with obscurantism, which rationalists have issues with.

    ReplyDelete
  57. You say there was no human life 1.75 million years ago...why? Were you alive 1.75 million years ago? Or did you travel back in time to ascertain the existence of human life? Heck, you yourself know your own birthday because your parents told you so. How can you prove that your parents are right? Maybe they are lying, or maybe they don't remember.

    Scientists say that Dinosaurs lived more than 65 million years ago based on their fossil remains? But again it is said that amount of Carbon14 after eight half lives is too small a quantity to be measured. Then clarify how the age of dinosaur fossils which are supposedly older than 65 mn years have been figured out, but the Ram Sethu constructed 1.75 million years ago can not be accurately dated.

    And since when has the word of the Archaeological Survey of India become gospel?

    Besides, if Darwinian theoy (which I am a proponent of) is correct, then the half-apes (vanars) could possibly have been the connection between man and ape that anthropologists have been looking for.

    I am a biotechnologist, and I have observed how well science and God are amalgamated in the processes of biological translation, transcription and so forht. Even the birth of a healthy child despite the odds of malformities happening is a testament to the force that we call Parmatma.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Analyzer:

    if Darwinian theoy (which I am a proponent of)

    It is very hard to believe that you are proponent of Darwinian Theory- because you make so many assertions in your comment make me wonder if you know anything about it.

    You say there was no human life 1.75 million years ago...why? Were you alive 1.75 million years ago?

    Your first statement itself reveals your ignorance. Do you know how such old fossils and rocks are dated? Moreover, I didn’t say there was no human life. I said our ancestors were not ‘human’ as we know it back then.

    Scientists say that Dinosaurs lived more than 65 million years ago based on their fossil remains? But again it is said that amount of Carbon14 after eight half lives is too small a quantity to be measured.

    I was right when I said you don’t look like a proponent of Darwinian Theory. Now you show more ignorance on this topic. Carbon Dating is used only up to 60,000 years ago.

    I am a biotechnologist,

    That’s a shame to Science.
    Nowadays, we seem to have many scientific folks doing that. It was Watson recently.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Hey Sujai...

    Talking about open-mindedness and blind belief..reading your replies to comments show that you've already made up your mind on this issue......so this is not going to be a fair discussion...fine...this is your blog, you can write what you please...

    as a rational human, you wouldn't waste time debating religious issues...these are personal...be it Hindu, Christian or Muslim beliefs...organised religion is nothing but politics...so why do u want to play politics with people's emotions with irrelevant stuff...people have religious beliefs...that is their right..who are you to question it...are they forcing it upon you?

    the important point that we all should debate about is for which we have proof...that is that breaking the Sethu samudram bridge is an invitation to natural disasters...for this alone it should be realigned not stopped....

    why do u want to flame unnecessary passions with a pointless topic?...you also should be jailed for fanning communalism through your 'righteous-scientific' kind of rhetoric.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Arjun R :
    Why don't anyone suggest ghanesh for the Nobel Prize for Physics for his extremely intellectual discoveries in Physics? (Or for the Ignoble Prize?)
    I think he should have seen all those Physics stuff in some Physics dictionary and then he is reeling off various "thoughtful" discoveries. I think he doesn't even know that there exists something called proof which is required for those things to be accepted.It is extremely sad to see these people(who don't have any scientific temper) misusing science to their own ends.

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  61. Anon said:

    "...the important point that we all should debate about is for which we have proof...that is that breaking the Sethu samudram bridge is an invitation to natural disasters...for this alone it should be realigned not stopped..."

    I am surprised that people who do not have even a basic idea of what is being argued do not hesitate to add rejoinder!

    This debate is neither for nor against Sethu Samudram. This debate is about validity of using a mythological work as an argument while taking a stand on Sethu Samudram. Your arguments on why Sethu Samudram should or should not be pursued are irrelevant as far as this topic is concerned. Your rejoinder will be relevant only if you have an opinion on whether or not Ramayana can be taken as an argument when deciding the origins of Sethu Samudram.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Excellent post Sujai!

    Keep up the good work. Don't loose sleep on all those morons (lots of them it seems!) trying to mess with you.

    All these guys need a Enlightenment enema to learn the difference between ad hominem attacks and real logic.

    Well the Augean stables of the Indian "pandita" style "rationality" have to be cleaned one day.

    That day is upon us.

    Such a magnificent society, so insecure!

    Again keep up the good work. I got exhausted just reading the comments...you actually respond.:)

    Preethi Gangadharan

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  63. Dear Vivek behel
    I agree with you that all that rationalists want is to discuss the pros and cons of the project and decide about its future. And in the long post that I hade posted earlier, all that I was trying to do is throw light on the main issue, why is the government so hell bent on choosing an alignment for the project, which was not recommended by any of the committes till now. When a situation of choosing between religion and nation comes, its ones duty towards his/her mother land to commit for it. Also all the government needed to do was to conduct a proper study and come out with a report which would prove if the structure is man made or natural. There was nno need to question the existance of Rama.

    And my quoting excerpts from the article about Eistein was not to prove the existance or non existance of god. It was just to show that when such great intellectuals feel that what we know is not even a grain of sand, how can we conclude the existance or non-existance of a certain event or thing without really conducting proper studies. It was also due to many people who posted on this blog questioning the rationality in believing that such a person lived and built a bridge.

    I somtimes think why we call our puranas a mythology, literally meaning studying something that is a myth. Can we say some thing is a myth just because we don't have evidence to prove its existance.Non existance of evidence is not evidence for non existance. If I have hurt anyones feelings then I am sorry. But I ask everyone to be so while judging others.
    Views and opinions may differ, but it is neccessary for all of us to be tolerant and accomodate others opinion. Only then can we have a meaningfull dialogue, and this has been our culture and we all should strive to not let this be hijacked by either religious fanatics or radical rationalists. Thats al I have to say.

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  64. Those people who are not supporting the Rama Avtaar , actually they also not believe in himself and they are not able to follow the good steps shown by LORD RAMA.

    ReplyDelete
  65. hello brother hve u ever heard of string theory

    u r saying this is only a belief that lord rama ever existed.
    and brother u r discarding lord rama's existance on the parameters of science

    but for ur information our science is still not fully developed it is in its insane stage. the theories of science given in the past r proved wrong and new theories r taking there place a small example is quantum theory is now going to be relaced with string theory

    and string theory now says that we r living in a 11 dimensional space (not in conventional 4 dimensional space of which one is time dimension).

    this theory is in its begaining stages and can prove the existance of ghosts and supernatural powers.
    isn't this a myth for u my dear brother but this is true and is said by our scientists.


    so brother this is my request for u to not to play with some one's emotions esacially when u ur self don't know that the science which u r using is still not confirmed

    regards rajeev

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  66. rajeev:
    Did you just wake up in a science class, jotted down few points to discuss it here?

    Does string theory negate all the results of Quantum Theory?? Does it negate all the measurements based on radioactive dating?

    Good luck with your science classes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sujay,

      There is lot more in this world which have to be invented and discovered. If you get born 200 years back then on the basis of ur so called rationality you argued with people that in future how could any human fly, how a box gives u information(your so called google), chasing planets, human foot on the moon. You know communicating such people like you is waste of time. You are a big ass hole. You have mean mentality (Come to know by reading your responses on comments).

      Delete
  67. The life of the Ram Sethu is not 125,000 as suggested here but it's only 9000 years and historians have proven beyond doubt that Rama existed during this period. The same way Hindus world wide had been misled by telling there wasn't any Saraswati river and now satellite pictures proved that it's still flowing underground. So was the case of Dwaraka. This move to destroy the greatest man made structure on earth is a well calcualted move by the present anti hindu government ruling India. And Hindus won't let this happen NO MATTER WHAT!!!

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  68. Hi Sujai/Vivek Behal,
    I appreciate your views on ramsethu project to the painstaking extent of maintaining sanity in challenging set beliefs.

    I see that people like preethi appreciating your views and find there are a handful who can present their views which is refreshing for any progressive minds.
    I am brutally honest that I am not hindu by birth which helps me in seeing this whole episode in a detached way without my set beliefs kicking in to color the information being presented.

    second I also would like to point out jellices view that religion and faith is critical to human evolution ( just looking at any civilization in the history of mankind) .
    So on the whole I appreciate the views and all the refreshing thoughts exchanged because of ur blogs.

    ReplyDelete
  69. well why would you like to destroy a monument? doesn't matter its man made or naturally evolved.

    Why do we oppose destroying beautiful valleis or any natural beautiful place or wildlife centuries and parks?

    It may not be man made, but then there lies the belief of millions of people on it. When you go to temple or church or mosque I know and you know God may not be there, they are all made of stones and concrete. But it is just belief and it helps people to hold on to their faith and prevent them doing so called evils in the world. Why would you like to destroy the faith of someone?

    The question here is more of a faith than being an Archaeological scientist. A simple question -- you know after death the body of a human is just a useless flesh but why do we bury it with so many rituals? Because there are emotions and gratitude present.
    Would you like to stab a knife on the pic of your loved ones? Pic is just a piece of paper from scientific view, so whats there in doing so? But ask a Mom what does it mean for her to do so on her child pic, you will get what I am trying to convey.

    And if you look into the area its all a shallow water area where you can not have big ships going to and fro anyway, it is just some construction company put in some millions of rupees in so called our leaders in democracy that they want to give a go ahead on this. No one really know or evaluated how really helpful is this going to be. Had that been the case, Britishers would have already taken this step hundred years back.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Hello,
    I am sorry to say this, but your article is very very poorly substantiated. You think, homo sepians did not exist so many years back, b cos of disputed Darwin's theory.I think its high time, people like u stop kissing wester whatever. However, it is not even possible to prove that, u r father's father's father's father's father's father did exist, by his name or any kind of birth certificate right? So cannot be proved of existence of Rama by producing a birth certificate from govt office by bribing them for few rupees. There is no living proof available that, Taj mahal was also a built by men, would u destroy it? however it is only 2-3 hundred years back that Taj mahal was built so we believe in it from word of mouths. So did Rama. I the very country of Rama his existence need not be proved to people like you. I am sure u wont let this comment appear on u r blog, but this one is for you only. I suggest you wipe off u r Marxist attitude if u r biologically born hindu, otherwise don't try to interfere in native Indians matters. Its privilege that u r born and living there.

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  71. Hi Sujai,

    Maybe its not a question of whether or not Rama really existed, or whether or not the bridge is natural formation or whether monkeys or human built it.

    Its a symbol that represents many peoples beliefs- they fondly hold on to the bridge. Religion itself is holding on to certain beliefs or faiths isnt it. Why destroy what is so dearly held by millions of people. It is completely futile to make the masses understand that the Ramayan was just a brilliant peice of fiction - which may or maynot be based on facts.

    When our dear PM cant even get the masses to understand why we need a fuel price hike- when its so completely obvious, and necessary..its just umimaginable to be able to get them to agree to the destruction or even cause a small disturbance to something as sacred as the Ram-Setu bridge.

    Yes, the way a hindu beleiver-of-Rama's thinks is probably quite amusing to an atheist like you and makes a good blog post to make fun of their 'unscientific' notions by systematically refuting their arguments.

    For example if it was found that withn the vicinity of the holy Kaaba was an oil rich field or say diamond field or some such place that would bring huge economic benefits to SaudiArabia - do u think the govt would even consider exploiting it. It would be a blasphemy to think of the economic benefits when the sentiments of millions of muslims around the world would be hurt.

    But then the hindus in India arent supposed to stop a construction violating a sacred place accroding to their beleifs.

    No one says the destruction of a library or a burning of buses is the right way to show their objections. Yes unfortunately there are some people who let their emotions run high and let it completly blind them. These harmful elements should not be representative of all the hindus who object to the sacrilege on Ram-Sethu.

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  72. For example if it was found that withn the vicinity of the holy Kaaba was an oil rich field or say diamond field or some such place that would bring huge economic benefits to SaudiArabia - do u think the govt would even consider exploiting it.

    Why go to Saudi Arabia? We have an example right here in India - but I'm sure Sujai will somehow figure out how to blame it on Hinduism.
    I guess if it's economically feasible and/or in the national interests to put up a mall where Jama Masjid or Taj Mahal are, according to Sujai, we should go ahead and demolish them too. Right Sujai? ;)
    -chirkut

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  73. Chirkut:

    according to Sujai, we should go ahead and demolish them too. Right Sujai? ;)

    Yes! They should be demolished too, if proven that they were also build by monkey army 1.7M Years ago

    ;-)

    [Your sarcasm reeks of very low logical reasoning]

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  74. Priya:
    For example if it was found that withn the vicinity of the holy Kaaba was an oil rich field or say diamond field or some such place that would bring huge economic benefits to SaudiArabia - do u think the govt would even consider exploiting it.

    I am not sure what you reaction you are expecting from me citing this example.

    Do you want to use Saudi Arabia as the model state for India?

    How does this example help make a case? Should we follow Saudi Arabia's example and veil all our women, cut off hands for stealing and use public executions for adultery?

    ReplyDelete
  75. Sujai,
    Ur missing the point..I am not saying we shud follow Saudi Arabia as a model state..

    India is to Hinduism what probably Saudi Arabia is to Islam...Hindus' by the millions in India, find this Ram Sethu as sacred.

    Why do they have to, in the country which is the home of hinduism, go to lengths to defend their own beleifs and faith to stop sacrilege. You wouldnt see it anywhere else. Religious sentiments of minorities are considered important...but not of the majority. Thats the sad part.

    ReplyDelete
  76. The mosque (given in the link by chirkut) needs to be demolished. Why waste crores of rupees in trying to accomodate a mosque? If it is of no great historical importance it needs to be demolished. It could be reconstructed in some other place.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Priya:
    India is to Hinduism what probably Saudi Arabia is to Islam...

    That's an interesting hypothesis.

    Does that also mean India is NOT a secular country and that it is a Hindu country. Will the diktats of religion prevail over secular laws? (Because that's what happens in Saudi Arabia)

    Why do they have to, in the country which is the home of hinduism,


    India is home to many other religions in addition to Hinduism.

    Before we discuss this further, let me ask you one question -

    Do you believe India is a Hindu country or a secular country?

    if you believe India is a Hindu country, I don't think we are on the same page.

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  78. India has ceased to be a secular country as witnessed by the riots in Kashmir regarding the donation of land to the Amarnath shrine board. For too long they have trampled on the rights of minority religions.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Do you believe India is a Hindu country or a secular country?


    That question can be easily turned around and asked of you:

    What makes you think that Hinduism and other dhammic religions in India have non-secular or anti-secular character, given the fact that people from different religions have been welcomed and/or found shelter here - be it Parsis, Jews, Syrian Christians, St. Thomas, Dalai Lama? The first mosque in India was built in 629 AD - 900 years before the Mughal empire began in 1500s. I don't really see any historical evidence of people being persecuted and/or denied rights in India because of their (different) religions.

    Different schools of philosophies in Hinduism, some of them contrary to each other, have existed in India. Even Carvakas - precursors to modern-day atheists - who rejected vedas had their place under the sun in India.

    If India and dhammic religions have demonstrated secular character, and that fabric is being torn because of Abrahamic religions and their intolerance (started with banning The Satanic Verses to not offend the minority vote-bank), then why should it be tolerated, and for how long? More so if that banning was done by pseudo-seculars and so-called liberals - ironically in the name of secularism - who did not protest this infringement on freedom-of-expression. Someone has to speak out against this stupidity, though I do not condone any violence. Tolerance of intolerance is not a virtue.

    When the so-called liberal p-secs develop a spine and/or balls and defend the right of Taslima Nasreen the same way they defend the right of MF Hussain (and I think both have a right to write and/or paint), I don't really see any hope.
    -chirkut

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  80. Chirkut:

    What makes you think that Hinduism and other dhammic religions in India have non-secular or anti-secular character,

    When a question to an answer is given by the state as ‘it is true because it is said so in that religious book’, or ‘we do it because it is sacred according to our religion’, then it is not a secular state. Hinduism seems to bring such elements into the picture where many rituals are done so because they are sacred, and not because they are debated or rationalized and those rituals seem to enter the functioning of the state.

    given the fact that people from different religions have been welcomed and/or found shelter here - be it Parsis, Jews, Syrian Christians, St. Thomas, Dalai Lama?

    Tolerance of other religions does not make it a state secular. For many years, Jews were given patronage under Ottoman Empire, and yet, Ottoman Empire was Islamic, not secular.

    I don't really see any historical evidence of people being persecuted and/or denied rights in India because of their (different) religions.

    True. That again speaks of the tolerance of other religions, but does not eliminate the idiocy of Hinduism and its adherents, like Ram Setu Controversy, where blind belief is pushed as evidence – where Ram with his monkey friends actually build a land bridge across seas 1.7 Million Years ago.

    If India and dhammic religions have demonstrated secular character,

    They did not. You are starting with an assumed premise which you did not even prove.

    Tolerance of intolerance is not a virtue.

    You are absolutely right. Banning of Satanic Verses is the absolute stupid thing India did. It does not reflect its secular character (if it is indeed one).

    When the so-called liberal p-secs develop a spine and/or balls and defend the right of Taslima Nasreen the same way they defend the right of MF Hussain (and I think both have a right to write and/or paint), I don't really see any hope.

    Are you sure you wanted to word it like that? Please take a second look at what you wrote.

    ReplyDelete
  81. I am not sure who is right or wrong... i found following link please see it.

    http://mall.turnpike.net/C/cs/em14.htm

    I am computer science student.

    Thank you
    Amit

    ReplyDelete
  82. Amit Patel:
    That link is taken out of 'Creation Science' page. Of course, you will see such cock-and-bull stories there.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  83. bruce k-----chicago il.

    the present version of bible has 2700 authours and has taken more than 1800 yeas to get to this level. does christ ever existed?
    in meta phyisical world one must accept. a musterseed faith. if it gives solace to any human being, so be it.'even if god is an imagination of man , i have faith in HIM.

    let the information flow, rest is a polimic debate. remember dinos' existed 65 million years and we don't even question the existence.
    we hindus' cremeate our dead.evidence lost.
    thanks,
    regards

    ReplyDelete
  84. When the Wow Gold wolf finally found the Buy Wow Goldhole in the chimney he crawled wow gold cheap down and KERSPLASH right into that kettle of water and that was cheapest wow gold the end of his troubles with the big bad wolf.
    The next day the cheap wow gold little pig invited his mother over . She said "You see it is just as mygamegoldI told you. The way to get along in the world is to do world of warcraft gold things as well as you can." Fortunately for that little pig, he buy cheap wow gold learned that lesson. And he just k4gold lived happily ever after!

    ReplyDelete
  85. hi Sujai thambhi,


    i suppose u have a very much educted fool.ur thinking is very narrow.The Rama sethu has not only believed to be just a holy site,but also its natural formation.And the many reasons above explanations.leave that holy site thing.Do u want it to be saved or destroyed.ru a hindu,do u beleive in god.Who r u to say that Rama doesn't.exited .ru u an authority on indian hindu belief.ya u have a right to think that rama sethu is not a holy site.I think u r neither a hindu nor a believer of god.That brain less fellow karunanidhi.is a populist by nature.ditrubutes tv's to people to get voted.
    U guys r no good following such an idiot

    ReplyDelete
  86. Hi all,
    I read most of the comments to this article, which in one sense is based on complete scientific reasoning... like calculating ages..not believing in different kind of person (Narsimha avtar etc.). I want to throw light on some of the issues which we may have ignored. It is always easy to pin point a thing which cannot (due to lack of proper tools or knowledge) be proved, like the existence of Rama and other avtars. But do we think that based on our current knowledge, we are well able to judge these statements? I will give below few examples to support my wording -
    1. It is well agreed that surgery was done long back in India.... people in India forgot this art and when only the western people adapted this, we also started to perform surgeries. This proved our science was very advanced long back. In support of this, I would like to borrow wording of one of the previous blogger, who pointed towards the "zero" being given by India. This is only one example, there are many... like vimana (aeroplanes) mentioned in the mythological books and vedas. Remember if the planes were the thoughts (if not actually existed) of the writers of these books, it also suggest that those humans had great power of imagination (very intelligent)... and we are nowadays seeing those objects. It will be very important to prove those things.
    2. There are many mysteries still which the science do not have answers.... e.g. there is a "jyoti"
    (flame) at Jwalaji (Himachal Pradesh), which also have a base from Hindu mythology, cannot be proved by scientists that how it was formed and why it did not disappear. There are many examples like this.
    3. There are some mythological books which mention about a person disappears from one place and then appears at some other place. This experiment was supposed to be performed by Einstein in Philadelphia, where he was able to make a ship disappear from one place to appear at some other far place. Cannot believe?
    4. It is also mentioned in the Mythological books that people could talk to each other through telepathy... we agree nowadays that one could talk through telepathy. It is also mentioned (in Mahabharata) that one could see (sitting at his home) what was happening in the war area. A perfect example of Live telecast, which is very common nowadays but the people living 400 or more years back would not have believed. So main point is - it is not that the things, persons or God did not exist or did exist, the question is whether we are enough capable of seeing that or well educated to see those things.
    5. Whether you believe in Hindu Mythology or not, but the so called scientific technologies (few of them I mentioned above) we are seeing these days have been way back reported in Hindu Mythology.
    Now it is the question of proving that those things existed long back... which is a difficult task but not impossible.
    6. Just to prove that we should destroy Ram Shetu, we are making comments (may be right may be wrong) on the Ramayana. I think better way to solve this problem is to think Biologically, geographically and also religiously whether it will be very helpful(or the only option) in building India's future.
    Thank you.

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  87. I believe Ram and believe he existed. But to save lot of fuels, if god existed today will allow us to break the bridge.
    There are some pain points like destroying the beliefs, killing aquatics.. but we need to them all.

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  88. Bhavishya purana is one of the eighteen puranas in hinduism.This says about the future.The Pratisargaparvan part of Bhavishya purana mentions (I.1.2-3), contains stories about Adam, Noah,Abraham, Jesus, Prophet mahamad, Buddha,Mahavir, Yākuta, Taimurlong, Nadir Shah, Akbar (the emperor of Delhi), Jayacandra, ... and many others. It even knows the British rule in India and names Calcutta and the Parliament and many. Sanskrit is one of the oldest language.This is mainly based on sounds rather than letters. In the vedic periods and before humans have very good memory power that they no need to write and study. They just studied by listening single time alone from their Gurus. At that time when the avataras have taken place there is no need for writing and preserving it. After some years great sages realised the need of writings about avatars as humans are loosing their memory. This must be the reason for the epics written delayed after several hundreds of years after avatars.
    Of course we cannot find the proof from historians other than sages for existence of avatars but there are traces of places that have taken place. For Narashimha avatar, there is a place called AHOBILAM in andhra pradesh.You can see today the temples are in caves. That caves are very old. The Ugra sthamba from which Lord Narashimha came is still there.you can see it today also. Next avatar is Rama avatar where the name of the places given in Ramayana are existed. Also Rameshwaram temple where Rama worshipped is also available today. The place where Rama kills vaali is also available.It is Anegunti in karnataka. Whatever reasons you may give but Ramsetu is protecting India not only from Tsunami also from earthquakes,erosions,etc. Purposely it may be built. Then Krishna avatar Still there are many traces. Dwaraka was a beautiful city developed by Viswakarma as per advice of Sri Krishna according to Mahabharat. The recent underwater studies conducted by the ASI (Archeological Survey of India) reveals the existence of city dated to the 5000 BC.The search for the lost city was going on since 1930's. The Marine Archeology Unit (MAU) of the National Institute of Oceanography, took part in this search in 1983. This search was carried out in the coastal waters of Dwarka in Gujarat.Explorations between 1983 and 1990 revealed the well-fortified township of Dvaraka, that extended more than half a mile from the shore. The township was built in six sectors along the banks of a river. The foundation of boulders on which the city's walls were erected proves that the land was reclaimed from the sea. extended up to Bet Dwaraka (Sankhodhara) in the north and Okhamadhi in the south. Eastward, it extended up to Pindara. The general layout of the city of Dvaraka described in ancient texts agrees with that of the submerged city discovered by MAU and dated as 5000 to 6000 BC. The historical investigation of the city has many possible religious implications and may influence interpretations of the Krishna legend. According to Megasthenes of 3rd century B.C,there are 137 generations existed between Sri krishna and chandra gupta Maurya. You accept Chandra gupta Maurya because it was written by other country's ambassador. If he does not come to chandra gupta maurya kingdom you wont believe him also. But Chandra gupta was given in mahabharat. You accept this but wont accept Sri krishna. Changes are non stoppable.It is impossible to bring everything under history. There will be many real stories which is not under history. So it is not so easy to leave Ramayana and Mahabharat as epic alone. They are true. Also i can give one example there are many persons excelled in 64 arts in those days. can you find anyone excelled in atleast 2 arts. Many destroyed. Even we dont know our families last ten generations. how come we can leave the two great epics as simply they are stories.They are true.

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  89. Whether or not Rama existed can not be proved by this nonsense article. Nobody is going to stop praying just because Mr Sujai has prepared a thesis on Rama claiming he did not exist. And for that matter nobody would even start praying if you come with another ridiculous article claiming Rama existed ... Stop all this nonsense and work on something that will help yourself.

    Ravi, Bangalore

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well said bro.. :)

      Delete
    2. hahaha......very well summed up...
      whatever u believe....u have no right to bash peoples belief systems and faith......especially when they are causing no harm to u in any practical way......
      Sujai...learn some manners....before blogging...!!!
      Jai Hind

      Delete
  90. SAI
    I want to make a point to all those rational thinkers in a very rational way.
    If someone ask's who is your father, naturally you reply by giving your father's name. But if asked what is the proof for that? perhaps you can prove it by a DNA test...
    But what is the authenticity that the report is correct?
    It can be a wrong/tampered report? Can happen? Even if the report is genuine, why should i believe in that theory? I cannot understand science as I am a specialist in finance.
    Therefore does it make any sense if i shout that the theory of DNA is wrong just because of my inability in understanding the theory of DNA?
    In the same way, just because of your inability to understand the believes of these people in their scriptures you cannot claim that they are Irrational.
    Coming to Rationality, if you have gone through the Ramayana, just rationally think how Valmiki can describe all those places that really exists without travelling in those days where there is no proper transportation..

    If Rama doesn't exist's who has written Ramayan? If Valmiki has written to what age he belonged to? 1000 AD or 1000BC? On what kind of a mechanism he might have used in writing it? Who has preserved it till date? There are no traces that Valmiki traveled from Ayodhya to south india to Sri Lanka....
    You cannot claim that Ramanyan came by itself as Ramsetu formed by itself? Again it becomes irrational.. somebody might have written it? isn't it?
    With out divine grace no one could write as beautiful as it is, as musical as it is, as rhythmic as it is, as touching as it is and as morally valued as it is. It is a story on how to lead a righteous life.

    You all rationalists, if you understand the rationality of what i mean.. I am graceful

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  91. Sjai
    First of all thanks for ur article
    i m really impressed by ur article and studies u have done on tease.
    i think its time to move us indian practically.
    we should not waste time on old beliefs , whatever is good for india and indians we should do all together.

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  92. I am delighted by the responses to this blog. There are many people on this earth who can see beyond 'eat, sleep and enjoy'. Rationalists like Sujai think human life is meant for these only and want to argue only on that basis. Very unfortunate that anybody who can process a third degree polynomial equation thinks a intelligent and comments on everything. These guys are dangerous than terrorists, becuase they can guide innocent minds in worng path. Sujai's Telangana blogs are such misguiding theories.

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  93. OK, for a moment lets assume that Rama sethu was not built by lord sir ram.
    1.>
    But I don't see any need to destroy also.Nowhere in world you will find floating stones.At least the government has to protect it for it its uniqueness.
    2.>
    If instead of Rama there was beilef that prophet allah had built it, would the so called secular government of India dared to touch it ?.

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  94. @Shravan

    "Nowhere in world you will find floating stones." ---- Are you kiddin' me???

    Poeple like you obviously haven't heard of the stones called "Pumice stones", which DO float on water without having any mythical name [like Ramchandra...] written on 'em...

    And guess what?? They're found near New Zealand too.

    What I understood from all these comments & replies to those comments is that spiritual blindness is WORSE than physical blindness. And there ain't no cure for that as long as you choose to remain blind.

    And Sujai, what they're basically trying to tell ya is "You gotta respect this religion & culture no matter what because you're born in this sh!tty culture with people full of ignorance"..

    So there ain't no "freethinking" sorta stuff..

    UN-FUKIN'-BELIEVABLE how people could be so ignorant

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  95. Sujai..

    Im Vicky. according to you if something is not yet scientifically proved its not truth & no one should believe it correct?? if u have heard the story of pushpaka vimana 300 years ago (before airplanes were discovered) you could have argued the same way about it like how u r doing now.. remember science has not yet unwrapped all the secrets.. Please go through Bhagavad gita once u will be enlightened. u will atleast cum to know that nothing is impossible wen u have real urge of doing something. How can u claim that the bridge could not be built?? wen u have pyramids built long long back. Even today its highly difficult project if someone starts.. nothing happens without a reason & in hindu mythology nothing is written without reason.. Thank u Fuck off

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  96. How we will prove existance of Taj Mahal, Bill Clinton, Liberty tower, Gandhiji, Apple Ipod, so on and so forth.. after the nuclear war? According to great Einstine we will go back to stick and stone age after World war III.

    World will wiped out after nuclear war. After that mankind won't able to prove all this what we are watching today. Similarly geographical destruction and any physical damage to evidence over period of time doesn't allow us to prove existance of our Rama.

    Take an instance of scientist - they claiming that there is no life on other planet. Is this true ? What is the color of sky ? Blue are you sure? What is color of light? White are you sure ? Is SUN rise in East? Are you sure? What is truth?

    Humans has limited knowledge. Limited knowledge can not prove unlimited world. Logics are good in debates only. Write my words existance of current world cann't be proven in future especially after nucelar war or great eruption due to comet crash.

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  97. Hi

    What you have to talk about this ?

    http://www.zmescience.com/science/archaeology/ancient-african-cave-paiting-3123123/

    Archeology has found ancient painting studio from 100,000 years ago.

    That means men was living and they were intelligent as well. Edger Cassey of America said human was living before in Atlantic they were intelligent as well.

    I have trust in Ram and his Ram Setu.

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  98. Sujai boss! I will celebrate party on the day you close this blog. LOL....People like you are curse to this nation. F.O

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  99. Sujal its unfortunate for my name being same as yours how ever i promise i am able to think better and more than you, if you find the Dwarka explorations a city carbon dated to 12000 years it would enlighten you, yours faithfully
    A homosapien with a brain

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  100. Mr Blogger..

    I Really surprised that, how did you become a scientist(Jr). you said one point about PSLV.. but why the same scientists go to tirumala tirupati before launching and prey for successful launch..

    I think you might be one among them who preyed.

    now came to know that you can even sell your mother land. or even mother for something to prove or to make your idiotic comments win. but you dont get the point that you just win in this debate.. but you cant satisfy yourself.

    shut your mouth and try not reading but by studying the ramayana and mahabharata.. first..

    i think you know atleast the difference between reading and studying..

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  101. YOu western people are fools. The science you have developed over centuries is actually way behind ancient indian science. The ancient Indian Science is fully present in the Vedas and the in the Gita. It requires some intelligence to understand it which unfortunately you dnt have. Ram Setu indeed did exist. Thing you call REAL or the REALITY you describe is based on observations and calculations. There are other forms of reality which the ancients discovered long ago. Ponder over it for a wee while and you will get the true knowledge. YEARN FOR THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE FOR THIS WORLDLY KNOWLEDGE IS WORTHLESS.

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  102. well some recent carbon dating has concluded that the bridge 'material' is 4000 to 3500 years old which is quite in accordance with valmiki ramayan.
    also i read a commentry on ramayan there ram didnt acualy built whole of the bridge but used pre-existing discontinous passage a tabolo and made it useful!!
    Also ramayan (sanskrit) does not say rama built shiv lingum but honoured one already present (this is out of context though)!! :)

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  103. Also we dont know the history of your india before 1500 BC what to say of 3500 BC!!!!
    also dating for buddha was iven by Max Muller (buddhist text disagree)!!!

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  104. Sujai you cannot arrive at such a foolish conclusion just by presenting certain deductive logics. You should first study the Vedas through a Guru (not by urself) and then experience urself the Codification of Mother Nature in Sanskrit as it exists through the Vedas.

    And Visible proof of The Ancient Dwarka City has already been discovered 19 nautical miles off present day Dwarka City coast Submerged under water exactly as mentioned in the Mahabharata which corroborates The Existence of The King Lord Krishna.

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  105. >>> You should first study the Vedas through a Guru
    You are asking too much. The league of Sujai's is born-intelligent. They do not need Guru. They learn everything by example. Here goes a simple deductive logic (hey, its by example) if one Indian in North-west is a cheat the chances of Sujai also being cheat are higher than that f United states of america.

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  106. We have been brain washed systematically with distorted history texts where with such mental setup we will never be able to understand.

    Its not a matter of Ram exist or not but certainly before that you need to explore what was the education, admin system & society prevailed where majority was educated & knew the rights.

    Ashoka rules the country from Afghanistan to tamlnadu & in west from Persia border to Burma border... now question is he was not having trains, telephone or any modern gadgets but still he was able to run the country...how

    dude..similarly how come sages able to discover gravity, numbers, zinc,chemicals, Ayurveda, yoga etc..

    No matter how hard we try not to believe about Shri Ram but fact is he existed in similar manner the way we never talk about Ashoka & Chndragupta..

    You should also know there was no rift between Hindu & muslims its was same divide wch is congress & BJP but in all people use to live peacefully together.

    But British wanted to have edge & want to rule and that was only possible only if we were divided in thoughts, believes, education, practice etc all this was done in a very systematic manner by distorting education, believes, history, wrong role models in society etc...and funding NGOs to preach & reach in masses.

    You need to research more, you may be right in what ever you know so far but truth is you need to dig deeper...dont read but take help of some guru to understand vedas

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  107. Nasa found in images that Ram Setu exists in year 2002,now either Valmiki had some technology more powerful than Nasa so that he saw at that time that Ramsetu exist and wrote Ramayan accordingly or RamSetu is truly built by Lord Ram.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Baseless writings with out any logic

    First try to find the facts and write about these articles.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Sujai. If everything is logical and scientific then tell me.
    A child clearly remembered his previous birth, met his previous relatives, and told them everything that only he knew.
    Now explain me, scientifically, how 2 different men, who never co-existed, who had different bodies, who had different brains, are same?
    Please give a scientific reason and nothing else.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Sujai. I respect your opinion. But not everything in the universe can be logical. If everthing is logical then there will be no difference between robot and man, between natural and man made. Can science prove the love scientifically? Can happiness, sadness, emotions, anger, ego, confidence, overconfidence, jealous, lust, etc be proved scientifically?
    Science says every man is same, because they all have same structure, but the truth is every man is different because of the above mentioned qualities. This cannot be proved why one is confident and other is not. Why one is angry and other is not. Why he is happy and he is not.
    I agree that almost everything has a scientific reason. But still there are certain things which are just natural, there is no science or logic behind them.
    There is a man who can pass so much current through his body that even scientists said it was something supernatural.
    There are many such cases, which are just natural (or you can say supernatural).
    So I am just trying to say that we should not just believe in scientific logic. There are many natural things which should be respected and honoured just for being natural or supernatural.
    Your article is good and don't take this comment personally. God bless us all.
    Thank you for reading.

    ReplyDelete
  111. :) very interesting...last few comments all bashing the author and reeks of intolerance!!

    and ppl clinch to anything and everything... even something published on one page on the internet where anyone can write anything...

    ex: US destroyed the twin towers...

    ReplyDelete
  112. Very nice article, even though Indians are educated, they won't try to question the existence of Ram.

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  113. hello friends,my name is NAVISH, in the article 'proved' word is used so many times.Could you please tell me who proved and what? do you even know who attaches this tag 'hence proved' to an article??? no one lands on moon ....pyramids are made by ailens 9/11 was the consipiracy of america..These topics even you would have seen on discovery and magazines. BBBBUUTT these are contrary to what we educated humans actually believe and what we believe has been proved (like niel armstrong etc in case of moon landing)but then why is this discussion still alive ????? unless there would be a discussion or a debate on a particular topic unproven and things who's scientific reason may be there, will remain like a mystry..so there is something written like a bridge is constructed ,i feel there would be because i don't think science and engineering can be included in any story to create excitement suspence or romance...:) :)

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  114. Navish,

    very good one.

    Nimesulide is 'proven' analgesic drug. Then it is 'proven' again harmful drug.

    Pluto was 'accepted' ninth planet. Then again it is 'accepted' not a planet at all.



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  115. CAN YOU PROVE YOUR FATHER'S EXISTENCE....IF YES, THERE WAS GOD RAM AND UNDOUBTEDLY THE BRIDGE WAS MADE BY GODMEN ARMY.... CHECK YOUR BLOOD FOR CONTAMINATIONS AS IT CAN NOT SEE PURE AND GOOD THINGS..

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  116. >>> CAN YOU PROVE YOUR FATHER'S EXISTENCE

    Cool! Rationalists are bent on proving that there is no need for 'father' and 'mother' alone can reproduce.

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  117. Very confident propositions, especially when you say "Man existed so many thousands of years ago, apes existed so many millions of years ago". My dear friend what makes you so confident of your figures? You have said you have "evidences" to prove this like archeological evidences, carbon dating etc. Have you heard about the "Piltdown man"? If not, I request you to please do some research on how scientists have cheated humanity regarding the theory of evolution. Frankly speaking there is no scientist including Charles Darwin who can prove with certainty the theory of evolution. Darwin writes in his book "evolution of species" that he finds it surprising how a complex part of the body as eye has evolved by a process of evolution. He feels it is a fantasy. People have superstitious beliefs on the theory that their ancestors were apes when no scientist was able to provide a single successful evidence to prove it. And when it comes to proof, what can be considered as a proof, please educate us on that. Do you consider carbon dating as a proof? Now I ask you a question. Carbon dating is a process wherein at any point of time the scientists measure the ratio of C12 to C14 and with that ratio they arrive at an age of the fossil. C14 is radioactive and begins to decay the moment the individual is dead. So the ratio will give the period passed since the fossil is dead. Now the question that arises is: are you and your scientists 100% sure that there can exist no ingredients that can not accelerate or retard the decay of C14? Can it not at all happen that some such component may have come in contact with this fossil and altered the speed of decay of C14? Are you confident that this process will give accurate results? You may say we have not discovered such a process. But modern scientists ignorance to not discover such a process can't be considered as an evidence that such a process can not exist.
    Do you want to know what is the major flaw in the "proofs" that you are asking? Let me give you an example. If I ask a 1st standard boy what is 5-2, he will reply as 3. Next if I ask him what is 2-5, he will laugh at me. He will tell me that small number can't come before big number in subtraction. He may even laugh at me that I am such a big man but I don't know basic subtraction. You can never prove to him that 2-5 subtraction is possible. Our modern education plants the seed of ego into us that we can understand everything. With this we start questioning everything without understanding whether we are sufficiently qualified to understand what "proof" is and what is our level of understanding?

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  118. There are three ways of proving things. One way is by perception(using 5 senses), second is by analysis of perceived things, third is by knowing it from some authority that knows it perfectly. You have highlighted the first process of gaining knowledge. But this process has 4 major flaws. Firstly, we all tend to commit mistakes. So when we make some observations, they may be mistaken ones which will never make us arrive at truth. You may say at least we may tend towards the truth, but it never happens so. Adding one extra oxygen atom to water makes it hydrogen peroxide. So one extra atom makes us no way near the truth if we assume hydrogen peroxide as water. Secondly, we tend to be illusioned. When we are travelling on a highway, we see at long distances some water bodies on road. When we go near, the water body is not there. This is called mirage, an evidence that we can fall pray to illusion. So this tendency to get illusioned makes us not get accurate observations forcing us to arrive at wrong conclusions. Thirdly, we have imperfect senses. Our eyes are dependent on light to see, and that too to a particular limit. Our ears can hear only certain wavelength of sounds. If we eat sugar and then orange, it appears sour, but if we eat lemon and then orange, it appears sweet. Thus our senses don't give accurate readings because they are imperfect. Fourth, we have a propensity to cheat.
    This is very nicely demonstrated by the proposers of the "piltdown man" theory. Because of these defects, whatever devices we manufacture will also have these defects and so we can never arrive at proper observations. So "proofs" by these methods are always imperfect and are always on the brink of being thrashed by better proofs.
    The second method of proofs is also followed by scientists wherein they analyze the facts before arriving at a conclusion. For ex, if you see a stick in a glass of water, you will see that it is bent. You will not directly believe it to be bent because while inserting the stick you knew that it is straight. Instead you analyze what is the reason for it to be appearing so. So scientists try this process. But this process also has problems. For ex: if I hear some sounds coming in a room I may analyze anything from that. I may analyze that someone is fighting, or that some movie is going on etc etc. When I open the door I may see that a group of people are doing a drama. So analysis may not give accurate results.
    There is one third way to know things that people generally don't believe and are forced to think as superstitious. When we tell about this process, people brand it as superstitious without even enquiring whether it is really superstitious or no. That is the process of accepting authority and hearing from the authority. If you buy a TV, there are two ways of knowing its operation. One is you may experiment connecting the wires etc. But what happens if you connect the cable wire or speaker wire to the electrical power point. It may burn the device and even be fatal. So intelligent men read the manual and call the company person and ask for a demo. After that they use it. Similarly when this universe was created, it came with a manual given by the creator. Now your next question is what is the proof that there was a creator and he has given a manual? For that my question would be which "proofs" are you talking about? To get proof of something there must be some elementary level of faith upon which the proof is constructed. For ex: none of us have gone along with astronauts in outer space. Still you have some elementary faith that astronomers have gone in outer space. Why does this faith exist? With this elementary faith we proceed and then as we proceed we start asking questions. When our questions are answered, things get proved. Why don't people adopt the same policy when it comes to proving about God.

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  119. When proving other things they keep some elementary faith, but when it comes to God, they take the stand of not having any faith. Why such hypocrisy? This is because our education has groomed us to behave this way. Just like we have some elementary faith in the manual and the demo person when he shows his id, we must have elementary faith in the knowledge(which is translated in sanskrit as veda) and the commentaries on this knowledge by various demo persons who are called in other language as saints. With this elementary faith we must give them the opportunity to prove that the scriptures are correct and whenever we get a doubt we must ask questions. There is absolutely no harm in asking questions provided our mood is not that we ask questions just to defeat this person. Then we will not get any knowledge. Modern process of gaining knowledge is called ascending process wherein you do certain observations and then on your own effort try to arrive at the truth. But the problem with this is we are not sure whether at any given point of time we have arrived at the truth or no. The very fact that we are not sure is itself a proof that we are far from truth.
    The second process is called descending process, wherein a person knows the truth and he tells us. This is an accurate process. Just like, I may not know how to operate a mobile. If I experiment, it may prove damaging. If I ask someone who knows how to operate a mobile and act without any manipulation, the mobile will work correctly. Then I may also educate someone else about it, and he may further educate someone else. This way the knowledge is propagated. Similarly, whatever knowledge(veda) is given by the Supreme Lord at the beginning of creation is told by Him to someone, and he tells it to someone else and in this way in a chain of disciplic succession the knowledge is received. That is considered as a solid evidence. So with that evidence, we can say for sure that Lord Rama came to earth, his wife mother Sita was kidnapped, and he took an army of monkeys and built a bridge all the way to Sri Lanka on the Indian ocean. One more thing, a person who can make heavy planets and stars float in air, what is the great difficulty for him to make some small rocks to float on water? If we must not have blind faith on religionists, we must not have blind faith on the so called "scientists". Let them prove that their "evidences" are unbeatable or infallible, then we can trust them. We can't trust them right away blindly. Instead of trusting ill charactered scientists who wanted prizes and recognition, it is better to trust the saintly persons who have lead a life of exemplary character and selflessness.

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  120. Mr. Sujai is your life begins with google search?
    :) Can you tell do you believe in sanskrit or not?
    because according to you sanskrit may not exits firstly and secondly for you only Sanskrit is the mother of all language.

    You just wanted to blog something without any sense.. to make others..

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  121. How ASI searched the existence of human beings on setu?
    According to me, it is impossible to drill the entire sea & find the evidence.
    so they drilled a tiny hole & brought a small amount of material used in setu & searched for the human evidences like coins, traces of bones. after some effort, they finally declared that there is no existence of human being.
    Because finding traces of human presence in land like Pyramids or Great Wall of China is very very easy comparative to the place beneath the sea.

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