Thursday, April 23, 2009

Numerology: another pseudo-science

The proponents of pseudo-sciences use the terminology of Science. They try to copy and emulate real science. That’s how they make naive people get convinced that it is indeed a science. Actually, these naive people are not really dumb. They are pretty ‘smart’ people who have consciously chosen to act dumb when it comes to certain aspects of life. These ‘smart’ people have gone to top schools, attended top colleges, got big degrees and now work for international companies. And yet, they believe in and follow pseudo-sciences to give them the much needed legitimacy.

Here’s on such interview with a noted numerologist. He is introduced as:

If someone thought of preparing a list of 'busiest persons' one cannot leave out the name of Pandit Ashokbharrati. His telephone numbers must be among the most accessed numbers in the country. It is said that several lakhs attempt to get in touch with him over phone every day.

While talking to a Nobel Laureate or the President of France, one does not say he is very busy or that he gets one lakh phones per day. Why? Because everyone knows they are important people, hence there is no need to actually say it. However, to prove that a numerologist is in serious business one has to go extra length to convince people. If you are trying to sell fake stuff, you really to work extra hard to prove it is genuine.

The numerologist, Pandit Ashokbharrati (note that there are two ‘r’s in his name), starts off:

I learnt this science from a Maharishi who was living in our place and when I was in the 11th standard…

How come a science is learnt from a Maharishi? Why do all these pseudo-sciences trace back to an illiterate rishi, sadhu, or a vagabond? In my region, most of these sciences originate in a koyavadu (a tribal), a kummarodu (a potter) or a sakalodu (cloth washer). Our aunts and uncles tell stories of a tribal they met on their way to some village, and how he has performed a miracle and gave some medicine which instantly cured a chronic ailment.

On asked if there is any difference between Astrology and Numerology, Pandit Ashokbharrati answers:

There is absolutely no difference. Astrology is based on the movements of planets and numerology is also based on the planets. For example, Venus is known as 6 in numerology. It is a simple way of understanding and practising Astrology.

If Numerology and Astrology are same, why have two pseudo-sciences instead of one? If I were to do a global-replace of all numbers with planets or planets with the numbers I should get the other pseudo-science, isn’t it? Just because one talks about planets while the other talks about numbers should we have two different branches of pseudo-sciences?

Or is it just another way of fooling people? More variants the more fools? May be some clever quack thought, ‘just because Science has Physics, Chemistry, and Botany, let’s have different branches in pseudo-science too’?

On asked whether there is truth in the belief that the numbers 8 and 13 are unlucky, he says:

Yes. These two numbers are unlucky and persons with the numeral value of their names adding up to these numbers would benefit by changing their names to eschew the evil effects of these numbers.

Hmm... Now you know why we get those weird names, like Hrrithikk Roshan, or Eiasha Khoppikhaar, etc. These movie stars keep adding alphabets to change their numbers till they get a hit in their films. That’s when they stop. The more letters they add, you should know more flops they must have got. (I wonder- why people only add but never remove alphabets from their names.)

This noted numerologist believes that Chennai should be changed back to Madras. He thinks there is an unfavorable effect on the city because it is christened Chennai. He gives his reasons:

The numeral value of the name Chennai is 25. You will recall that it was on a 25th that earthquake shook the city.

I just don’t understand these numerologists. How come they wait for the earthquake to happen to tell us why it is unlucky? If numerology was indeed a science, shouldn’t we have scientists telling us how we should name out cities? I have a very simple solution to get rid of earthquakes forever from history of mankind. Name all cities so that their numeral value is 32 or above. Since no such date exists, there will never be earthquakes. This way, numerologists can completely eliminate all natural disasters by just changing the names of the cities on the planet. Don’t you think we should invest in numerology instead of trying to predict earthquakes, tsunamis, storms, typhoons and hurricanes?

Next the interviewer asks him, ‘What is your opinion about removal of Kannagi statue, as per Vasthu?’

For a while, I though Pandit Ashokbharrati was a numerologist, how come the interviewer wants to know about Vasthu? Oh, I forgot. All pseudo-sciences are the same with just different names, isn’t? We can easily walk from one discipline to another without any problem. Of course, our hero does not even blink. He answers:

The numeral value of the name Kannagi is 17, which adds up to 8. No wonder that she faced problems when she lived and even now! (Laughs)

Actually he is laughing at the interviewer. He is laughing at all of us- all of us who keep listening to every word of nonsense that comes out of his mouth.

The interviewer is already mesmerized with this guy. He asks, ‘It seems that you have suggested that the name of our country be changed to United States of India (USI)…’

Yes. If the name is changed to 'USI', 'Gandhi Desham' or 'Bharath Desham' it would result in faster growth rate and better development for the country… If this is done, India would progress very well in agriculture, industry and general living as well and would be the 'number one' country in the world.


If the name 'Sri Lanka' is changed back to Ceylon, I tell you, peace would return within 30 days and it would grow up to match Japan. A change of name for Kashmir as 'Bharat Kashmir' would silence the guns in the valley.

I don’t know what to make of it. But there are millions of Indians who seem to make sense out of such stuff. Many educated Indians seem to be in awe of such men. Irrationality is being embraced consciously by arresting one’s mental faculties. We see Indians in very big positions, including those who run our governments and industries, believing in one pseudo-science or the other. And sitting next to him is some pseudo-scientist (if I may call them), a quack, a charlatan, who is making a quick buck feeding on his conscious naiveté.

41 comments:

  1. Are you kidding me? The day I was born will influence my personality traits, my future, my everything. Don't believe me? Numerology is another form of astrology. Now argue with *that*.

    I don't understand how my birthday affects my future, when the date is according to Gregorian calendar, an evil western invention out to get us. People who were born on, say 5th, would've been born on different date according to older calendars. Did numerology update itself after the calendar change?

    -- AV

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  2. > The more letters they add, you
    > should know more flops they
    > must have got.

    ROFL :-) 8-)

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  3. > I have a very simple solution to get
    > rid of earthquakes forever from history
    > of mankind. Name all cities so that
    > their numeral value is 32 or above.
    > Since no such date exists, there will
    > never be earthquakes.

    Hilarious! :)

    ReplyDelete
  4. A law is scientific not because of what it states, but how it is derived, whether it is verifiable and if the results of verification are consistent at all times. For example, let someone demonstrate that a moving body at constant velocity starts accelerating/decelerating without any external force applied to it...and the first law
    of motion from Newton shall be re-written. Its openness to verification at all times is what makes the law scientific.
    And thats how it derives the authorative status in society.

    Now, subjects like astrology, numerology, vastu etc want to enjoy the same authorative status which science enjoys which explains their "me too" scientific claim, but they dont want to face the trial of verification which scientific laws subject themselves to.
    For example when a prediction goes wrong, all an astrologer has to do is mention additional factors that changed meanwhile thus 'explaining' the deviation. Typically, something like - "the good fortune that was to arrive you this month was stopped as rahu descended on planet shani ".
    ok, so that means that the astrologer knew that he was not counting in all the factors while making the prediction but admits this only when proven wrong?
    The question here is not whether an individual astrologer was a good or bad one but if the subject itself lists all the factors that matter, provide rules for measuring them and predict anything, just about anything with 100% accuracy.
    To circumvent this problem of verification, astrolgers come up with a funda of Yog..( meaning probability). There's a yog of you getting married by 27. Now, probability in labs can be measured by repeating the trials and checking the outcome statistics...but you will be 27 only once in your lifetime...so again no verification of that probability.

    Another problem with astrology is that sometimes they dont clearly word ( deliberately?) the prediction. It is something vague like - The troubles/mental tension accosting you from past would be over by X year.
    These are self fulfilling prophecies. believers would always shift their lens till they find the right angle at which prophesy appears correct. It has always amused me how Nostradamus predicted every major event of later centuries but we realise this only after it has happened.

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  5. Excellent post Sujai. I would request you to watch Vijay TV (Tamil channel) after 10:30 PM, where every day people like Dr. Ashokbharrati will enlighten with their 'scientific' innovations. Pl note all of them have Dr. degree, with few from US universities ;)

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  6. People are free to believe in many things so long as it does not impinge on another's life.

    Let those who believe in numerology or astrology do so.

    Let them verify its truths for themselves.

    They are free to do so.
    That is the spirit of democracy and humanity.

    If the majority of people in a place wants to change the name of that place to something that they think more suitable, let them do so.
    That is also very much democratic.

    Why should one group criticise another's right to choose or believe differently.

    Do some people think that only they posses the wisdom to think ?

    Does not that betray superiority complex , superciliousness ?

    Isn't that the root behind attempts to bully others and coerce conformity ?

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  7. Nandini,

    Replace "astrology" with "economics" in your comment and it'll more or less work. So, what do you say to economics, even more relevant given the recent global meltdown. Why do economists still get the same prominence when their models and theories failed to predict or even give a warning. Is economics a valid study or just voodoo "science"?

    -chirkut

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  8. Incognito:
    People are free to believe in many things so long as it does not impinge on another's life.Yes, people are free to believe in anything they want to.

    Children are free to believe that Santa Claus exists. However, when the kid grows up to continue believe in Santa Claus and makes decisions on that belief, it can affect people around you, including one’s family, kids, etc. Let’s assume that this person grows up to become the head of postal services and decides to not deliver Christmas gift because Santa would do so – then it would affect many people, not just him.

    In India, such beliefs do affect the state and it’s functioning – like when people object to dredging of Ram Setu citing Ramayana as the evidence. There is a necessity to teach the kids to grow up and abandon the belief in Santa Claus – because otherwise his belief system can be a handicap.

    Imagine someone suggests that they should put in 4012 gallons of rocket fuel instead of the required 5300 gallons only because 4012 is a better number through numerology.

    If the majority of people in a place wants to change the name of that place to something that they think more suitable, let them do so.Democracy doesn’t always mean rule of majority. Please take a look at the articles I wrote on this blog titled – “Duties of the Majority and the Privileged” and “When Majority is not right”.

    Why should one group criticise another's right to choose or believe differently.You have understood democracy very differently. A group can criticize the other group in a democracy - however the dispute has to be handled rationally – that’s the how we deal with conflicts.

    Isn't that the root behind attempts to bully others and coerce conformity ?Forcing someone to abandon their belief in sati is not bullying. Its stopping people from doing irrational things that may eventually affect innocent people.

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  9. Chirkut:
    Is economics a valid study or just voodoo "science"?Economics is not considered a Science. It is usually located in Humanities/Arts Department. However, it is not voodoo. It is a valid study in the sense that we try to make sense of what’s going on. Nobody, not even the economists, swear by the prediction models they generate.

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  10. @ Sujai K

    >>>"Children are free to believe that Santa Claus exists. "

    But they don't.

    They are made to believe so by some parents.

    >>>>"However, when the kid grows up to continue believe in Santa Claus and makes decisions on that belief, it can affect people around you, including one’s family, kids, etc. "

    How does the kid continue to believe in Santa when he grows up ?

    Will that grown up man's parents continue to put gifts for him at midnight ?

    He will never catch on to what is going on ?

    Won't his parents tell him sooner or later ?

    Won't his friends tell him ?

    Do you know of any such case ?

    >>>"Let’s assume that this person grows up to become the head of postal services and decides to not deliver Christmas gift because Santa would do so"

    How does he grow up to become Head of Postal Services if he does not deliver Christmas gifts ?

    Is Postal Services full of idiots ?

    >>>"In India, such beliefs do affect the state and it’s functioning – like when people object to dredging of Ram Setu citing Ramayana as the evidence. "

    Ramayana is not required to be cited as evidence.

    Rama is a venerated icon of ancient india.

    Millions draw inspiration from his story exemplifying dutifulness, as a son, as a husband and as a King.

    For those millions, Sri Rama is as real as your parents are to you .

    There are more reasons.

    1. ecological. The damage to sea bed, sea creatures and the pollution.
    2. geological. It affords protection from a future Tsunami.
    3. Security. LTTE and possibile piracy.
    4. Cost. The cost far outweighs expected benefits.

    >>>"There is a necessity to teach the kids to grow up and abandon the belief in Santa Claus "

    That is the responsibility of the parent who misled the child in the first place.

    But this attempt to equate the case of childhood story of Santa with Sri Rama betrays ignorance of ancient india, its culture, its civilisation.

    There is an ocean out there. But unless you are prepared to jump out of the pool you surround yourself with, you will never appreciate the ocean, and you will dis-believe anybody who tells you of it.

    >>>"Imagine someone suggests that they should put in 4012 gallons of rocket fuel instead of the required 5300 gallons only because 4012 is a better number through numerology."

    Is that how rocket science works ?

    Such imagination exists only where idiots attempt rocket launching. And in that world the fuel also will be imagination. Rest assured that there is no case for worry, for such idiots won't know anything about rocket science to cause any damage.

    >>>"Democracy doesn’t always mean rule of majority."

    If the majority of the people at a place wants to change the name of that place to something, why should not they ?

    For it is they who stay in that place !

    Why shouldn't the desire of the majority count in an as insignificant an issue as the name of a place where they live ?

    If it does not, then it is not a democratic place.

    >>>" Please take a look at the articles I wrote on this blog titled ....."

    Please state your specific point.

    >>>"Why should one group criticise another's right to choose or believe differently.You have understood democracy very differently. A group can criticize the other group in a democracy ... "

    Well, you did not understand the point.

    The point was- " Why should one group criticise another's right to choose or believe differently"

    Democracy, in contrast to autocracy, allows each individual or group the freedom to live their personal life the way they wish .

    Which means, he is free to name himself 'abcd...xyz', call his cat 'xyz....abcd' and his dog '1234' if he so wishes, without waiting for approval from another person.

    This freedom to not necessarily conform to another person's or group's belief system is integral to democracy.

    That is what you are missing.

    You believe that numerology is humbug.

    Another person believes that numerology is great.

    You are both free to practice your individual beliefs in your personal life in a democratic setup.

    That is the essence of democracy.

    The freedom for one person to practice his beliefs in his personal life without having to face criticism from another.

    >>>"...however the dispute has to be handled rationally – that’s the how we deal with conflicts."

    The question is why do you dispute another person's right to live his personal life the way he wishes ?

    Why do you seek a conflict where there should not be one, in a democracy ?

    >>>"Forcing someone to abandon their belief in sati is not bullying."

    What has numerology to do with sati ?

    Have you forced anyone to abandon their belief in sati ?

    Did they then tell you that you are bullying ?

    Is that why you have used such an example here ?

    Or is this a product of the imaginative mind that made an idiot the Head of Postal Services and others like him launch rockets ?

    >>>"Its stopping people from doing irrational things that may eventually affect innocent people."

    Why do you so believe that others are irrational and you are rational ?

    Care to consider that those others may also hold same opinion about you as you do them ?

    This is the mentality that condemns 'others' who do not conform to 'your ' belief system as 'irrational', 'kafirs', 'pagans', 'heathens' , 'bourgeoisie', thereby de-humanise them.

    It is this tendency to 'de-humanise' people that caused deaths of millions of people and decimation of entire civilisations such as Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, American Indians, Africans and yes, your very own ancestors of this land, during the bloody history of mankind that you appears to have forgotten, and thereby, stand to repeat.

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  11. Incognito:

    How does he grow up to become Head of Postal Services if he does not deliver Christmas gifts?That’s an example to drive a point that when people with such belief systems occupy such positions, then there is a chance that it could affect a lot of people. We have many examples of such situations in India – where a certain huge office building that was newly constructed in the middle of the city was left unoccupied for many months because some Vaasthu expert spelt doom for the occupants.

    Is Postal Services full of idiots?Well, what do you call all those officers who did not occupy the building in the above case?

    For those millions, Sri Rama is as real as your parents are to you .So, can I use Rama as an alibi in a murder case? How about Spiderman? Is he real?

    Is that how rocket science works ?I don’t believe numerology to be science and hence that’s not how rocket science works for me. However, numerologists can come up with such ludicrous suggestions – and hence the example.

    If the majority of the people at a place wants to change the name of that place to something, why should not they ?They can.

    I did not oppose to changing name – I was commenting on the logic the numerologist provided to cite reasons for a change in the name of the city. If numerology is a science, we should have naming conventions for naming our cities, right?

    The point was- " Why should one group criticise another's right to choose or believe differently"Why not?
    You can criticize me. I can criticize you ;-) live with that.
    If someone comes onto media to say that numerology is science. I can go ahead and call his bluff. Can’t I?

    You believe that numerology is humbug. Another person believes that numerology is great.Doctor X believes that all men are equal and treats everyone the same. Doctor Y believes that white men are superior to black men and hence declines to treat black people. And yet, Doctor Y gets fired.

    The minute one’s belief systems starts to come into action it can affect other people – and that’s all I am opposed to – like in Ram Setu controversy, or leaving the office building unoccupied.

    You are free to practice your belief system on yourself – like believing Santa will deliver goods on Christmas. However, if you do it as Postal Officer, you get fired ;-) That’s democracy for you!

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  12. Chirkut,
    Economics is neither science nor voodoo. Economic equations have one parameter
    That is not predictable at all - human nature. Because of this limitation, economics
    is not strictly speaking a science.
    However, it is not voodoo either because there's no element of mystic/magic/divine in it. Its study involves observation and logical deduction to arrive at results. For instance, lets consider the common high school example of supply and demand curve to arrive at market price. That supply and demand affect each other is plain logic, the behavior of supply curve and demand curve can be observed and expressed as mathematical equation or visualized in a graph.
    What remains therefore is to find the common point of their intersection which would give us the market price. There's no magic going on here.
    But consider the real voodoo. Number 13 is unlucky..or a certain configuration of planets/asteroids affect me positively/adversely.How are these conclusions arrived at? For arguments sake, lets agree that they are sacred truths passed on as divine revelation to a higher mortal. Fine, then why arent the results consistent at all times?
    The point is, either the predictive models should be accurate so that the question of "how it was arrived" can be exempted...or the process of structuring the predictive model should be transparent like economics...so everyone knows what parameters are known and what paramaters are unpredictable and anyone can check if there are fallacies in the derivations.
    Astrology, vastu, numerology, feng shui, what have you ...dont do either...which qualifies them as voodoo.

    You also mentioned 'prominence'. As per you, astrologers dont get the same prominence as economists/scientists. The long list of their fan clubs which includes the educated, uneducated, classes and the masses tell a different story.
    However, the question is not of prominence. Its about the need to see things for what they are..science, valid study or just voodoo.

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  13. The point is, either the predictive models should be accurate so that the question of "how it was arrived" can be exempted...or the process of structuring the predictive model should be transparent like economics...so everyone knows what parameters are known and what paramaters are unpredictable and anyone can check if there are fallacies in the derivations.
    Wouldn't one need to actually study economics to understand the models and what the economists are saying? To a layperson, what matters is whether what the economists predicted was accurate or not - and not just in hindsight.


    Astrology, vastu, numerology, feng shui, what have you ...dont do either...which qualifies them as voodoo.Have you actually studied any of these first-hand?



    You also mentioned 'prominence'. As per you, astrologers dont get the same prominence as economists/scientists.Nope, that's not what I said. Please read my comment again.

    -chirkut

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  14. > That is the essence of democracy.
    >
    > The freedom for one person to practice
    > his beliefs in his personal life
    > without having to face criticism from
    > another.

    Cool. So let's keep Sati going, casteism growing, people can go copulate with their sons and daughters as long as it is within their house,minors can continue being made to work,martial rape can be legalized, homosexuality should not be a problem to moral dickheads, and we will all live happily ever after.

    It is this lack of understanding of what a democracy is, and how it is different from majoritarianism, that causes most of the rightist wannabes to drivel all over the web.

    > Why do you so believe that others are
    > irrational and you are rational ?
    >

    > Care to consider that those others
    > may also hold same opinion about you
    > as you do them ?

    No, they don't have the right to have such an opinion against us. They would be deluding themselves if they do that. Don't you understand the literal meanings of "faith" and "rationality"? When you ask us to accept mythological stories as truth,with concepts like "Ram lived 17.5 million years ago" just because that is what is written, even if it goes against every shred of rational discovery done till date,.. are you appealing to our rational senses or otherwise?

    Do not delude yourself by calling yourself rational. You don't have the right to do so. Read what you have written and how you have argued, and let me know which part of your claims are rational.

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  15. Chirkut,

    Economics, as long as it is basic, is fairly predictable. Supply/demand laws are something that almost everybody understands intuitively. It is when the number of factors in the mix go out of hand that economics becomes too complex to predict.

    On a day to day basis, our banks, RBI, etc. use economics are the foundation for making decisions. It works at the level of complexity they want it to work.

    Think of medical science. Basic medical science theory works for most patients. That is why medicines work. However, when the number of sources contributing to an element becomes too many for a doctor to keep in mind, he falters. That is the difference between a good and a bad doctor. The former is more aware of the complexities of ailments.

    Rocket science is as predictable as science can get. However launches still fail. Mostly because some factor that could have been taken into account for, had not been deemed important.

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  16. Chirkut,

    >>To a layperson, what matters is whether what the economists predicted was accurate or not -

    Correct. Economists cannot make a layman’s life easier by offering neat and reliable prediction. But you dont judge a subjects validity by how it affects the layman.
    Scientific discoveries also are of no use to layman unless they provide a utilitarian value.

    >>Have you actually studied any of these first-hand?

    Have you actually found something wrong in what i said here –
    “Astrology, vastu….dont do either”.

    Rephrasing what i already said, the basic laws of economics are verifiable and logically consistent which makes it a valid study. One can live with good and bad economists.
    Whereas for astrology, the law which are used for the prediction are itself not verifiable.

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  17. E=mc^2

    This is my first visit to your blog and I am happy to see more rational minds here. I enjoyed the discussion on this post regarding democracy and rational thought.
    On the topic of numerology, I had written a post on the same topic some time back and had a discussion with numerologist Mr. Sanjay Jumaani.

    http://nitwitnastik.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/numerology-and-the-mumbai-attacks/What I always realize after discussions with people who believe in numerology and astrology is that it's not about what's rational or scientific but what conforms to their belief systems. Anything that does is accepted without questioning.

    And when faith takes precedence over reason, there's not much anybody can do. Unless someone is willing to challenge his/her beliefs, no amount of rationalizing or reasoning is going to change his/her mind. But heck, I still keep trying. If we can make a crack in that armor of faith, I would say we have atleast made some headway.

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  18. @ Sujai K,

    >>>>How does he grow up to become Head of Postal Services if he does not deliver Christmas gifts? That’s an example to drive a point that when people with such belief systems occupy such positions,...

    When you use examples, should you not use realistic ones ?

    >>>>"then there is a chance that it could affect a lot of people. We have many examples of such situations in India – where a certain huge office building that was newly constructed in the middle of the city was left unoccupied for many months because some Vaasthu expert spelt doom for the occupants."

    Shouldn't a builder find out what his prospective customers want before building someting ?

    >>>>Well, what do you call all those officers who did not occupy the building in the above case?

    Officers.
    Why do you have to name call someone who holds a personal belief that is different from yours ?

    >>>>For those millions, Sri Rama is as real as your parents are to you . So, can I use Rama as an alibi in a murder case?

    Provided you get Sri Rama to provide the alibi for you.

    >>>>How about Spiderman? Is he real?

    You find out.

    >>>>"I don’t believe numerology to be science and hence that’s not how rocket science works for me. "

    So it is a matter of ' belief ' for you.

    >>>>However, numerologists can come up with such ludicrous suggestions – and hence the example.

    You came up with the ' ludicrous ' suggestion which you are attempting to hoist on numerologists.

    >>>>"I was commenting on the logic the numerologist provided to cite reasons for a change in the name of the city."

    Numerologist has his own logic.
    Let the people evaluate the logic and arrive at their conclusions .
    Why do you deny their right to do so .

    >>>>"You can criticize me. I can criticize you ;-) live with that."

    Not about personal beliefs.

    >>>>If someone comes onto media to say that numerology is science. I can go ahead and call his bluff. Can’t I?

    You hold a prejudice that such a claim is a bluff without scientifically verifying the truth yourself.


    >>>>Doctor X believes that all men are equal and treats everyone the same. Doctor Y believes that white men are superior to black men and hence declines to treat black people. And yet, Doctor Y gets fired.

    What are you talking about.

    >>>>>The minute one’s belief systems starts to come into action it can affect other people

    So you attempt to deny others the right to their beliefs.
    That is what makes you autocratic.

    >>>> like in Ram Setu controversy,

    You overlook the ecological , geological, security and cost reasons.

    You are ignorant of alternatives route that does not damage the Ram Setu even if above four reasons are overlooked.

    >>>>or leaving the office building unoccupied.

    Already discussed above.

    >>>>You are free to practice your belief system on yourself – like believing Santa will deliver goods on Christmas.

    Santa example was your construct.

    >>>>However, if you do it as Postal Officer, you get fired ;-)

    That also was your construct

    >>>>>That’s democracy for you!

    No, that is your delusional world.

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  19. @ Bhatta

    >>>>Cool. So let's keep Sati going, casteism growing, people can go copulate with their sons and daughters as long as it is within their house,minors can continue being made to work,martial rape can be legalized, homosexuality should not be a problem to moral dickheads, and we will all live happily ever after.

    If those are you personal beliefs, live so in your life.
    If your husband/wife dies, go commit sati yourself.
    within yourself practice casteism
    You may try to copulate with yourself. But attempting the other things that you suggested is tantamount to depriving the subject others their right to personal belief.

    >>>>>It is this lack of understanding of what a democracy is ..

    It is you that is lacking understanding of what is personal beliefs.

    >>>>>No, they don't have the right to have such an opinion against us.

    Denying others the same rights as you claim is being autocratic

    >>>>>When you ask us to accept mythological stories as truth,

    Nobody asked you to accept another's personal belief.
    Similarly you should not impose yours on others.

    >>>>> Read what you have written and how you have argued, and let me know which part of your claims are rational.

    Figure out yourself

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  20. @Incognito,

    1. "Shouldn't a builder find out what his prospective customers want before building someting ?"
    Suppose a builder is constructing a housing complex for 100 people. Each has his or her personal VaastuShastra/FengShui/Numerology expert. Then what?

    2. "Why do you have to name call someone "
    One who works in an office IS an officer :) Where does "name call" come in my friend?

    3. "So it is a matter of ' belief ' for you."
    Belief or disbelief does not affect Science , which is based on solid, VERIFIABLE FACTS. VaastuShastra/FengShui/Numerology is neither VERIFIABLE nor LOGICALLY CONSISTENT. So you find Sanjay B Jumaaaaaaaaaaani giving one prediction and Bejan Daruwala giving another ( or as Bejan claims, it is actually "Says Ganesha" and not him). THAT'S why numerology is pseudo-science, not because of Sujai's disbelief or someone's belief in it.

    4. "You came up with the ' ludicrous ' suggestion which you are attempting to hoist on numerologists.
    .......
    Numerologist has his own logic.
    Let the people evaluate the logic and arrive at their conclusions ."
    Sujai has evaluated the said numerologist's logic. He has found it ludicrous. You got a problem with that? Nobody is denying you the freedom to evaluate and arrive at your own conclusion. But you should also respect Sujai's freedom. As Voltaire said:
    " I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it"

    5. ">>>>"You can criticize me. I can criticize you ;-) live with that."

    Not about personal beliefs."
    Yes I can , if your beliefs start affecting me.When
    i) Ram Sene's Pravin Mutalik's belief that women should not drink in pubs
    ii) Raj Thakerey's belief that Mumbai is for Maharashtrians only
    iii) VHP and Bajrang Dal's belief that muslims of Gujrat should be burnt alive
    starts affecting others, it is time to drop neutrality and take a stand.

    6."You hold a prejudice that such a claim is a bluff without scientifically verifying the truth yourself."
    Already explained in 3. When Galileo/Newton/Einstein/Darwin claimed something, they had to prove it to be accepted as Science. if astrologers claim Astrology is Science, the onus is on THEM to prove it, not us to disprove them. Till then rational beings like me and Sujai will continue to ridicule them.

    7."What are you talking about."
    He is talking about what I said in 5. When someone's belief starts affecting others , they have to bear the consequences, which coluld be getting fired from job or being ridiculed by Sujai.

    8."So you attempt to deny others the right to their beliefs."
    You have every right to your belief and freedom to follow it. But you do not have any right to impose it on others. Also be prepared to be ridiculed, if we find such beliefs ludicrous. Because it's our right to criticize you. Clear hai?

    Jack Roberts

    ReplyDelete
  21. Incognito,

    >>Shouldn't a builder find out what his prospective customers want before building someting ?

    Who do you mean by customer? The entity who pays for the building, right?
    Since this is a government building, it is brought with public money. The officers/legislators who were given the building to carry out their job were paid from taxpayers money too.
    So, when they refuse to occupy the building, the resulting loss is also borne by taxpayer. In this way, the officers 'personal belief' affected the public and taxpayers money.

    >>Why do you have to name call someone who holds a personal belief that is different from yours ?

    who is name calling here? The actions of those officers are based on belief and not reason. In dictionary, there's a word for that - Irrational - not endowed with reason.
    Can you tell us why we cannot use that word for these officers?

    >>You hold a prejudice that such a claim is a bluff without scientifically verifying the truth yourself.

    The onus of providing proof lies with the one making the claim. So, if Ashok Bharrati says that numbers 8 and 13 are unlucky, it is he who should be providing the proof.

    >> ">>>>"You can criticize me. I can criticize you ;-) live with that."

    >>Not about personal beliefs."

    As long as one keep their beliefs personal, who would even know about it,
    forget criticize it. But astrologers, vastu 'consultants' propagate their 'personal belief' in public domain, so they must be prepared for publics reaction as well. There are many in the public who believe them. No one stops them .There will be a small minority in public who will question that. You cant stop them too.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @ Nandini

    >>>>"Since this is a government building, it is brought with public money. The officers/legislators who were given the building to carry out their job were paid from taxpayers money too. So, when they refuse to occupy the building, the resulting loss is also borne by taxpayer. In this way, the officers 'personal belief' affected the public and taxpayers money...."

    How did this building become govt building if govt officials rejected it ?

    It would be worthwhile to consider why most government offices are so inefficient and unproductive.
    A proper scientific mind would examine all aspects .
    A closed mind would reject many aspects due to prejudice.

    >>>>"The actions of those officers are based on belief and not reason."

    To take a personal example, you believe your parents are your parents.
    What is the reason ?

    You have not done DNA test to confirm it. have you ?
    But you are convinced of it based on your personal experiences.

    Similarly, some people are convinced of certain things based on their personal experiences.
    In a democracy, people are allowed to have such divergent personal beliefs.

    It is they who have to work in that building.

    You would not take responsibility if something happens to them. would you ?

    >>>>>"In dictionary, there's a word for that - Irrational - not endowed with reason. Can you tell us why we cannot use that word for these officers?"

    Would you like to use that term for yourself because you believe your parents are your parents without confirming it through a DNA test ?

    >>>>>"The onus of providing proof lies with the one making the claim. So, if Ashok Bharrati says that numbers 8 and 13 are unlucky, it is he who should be providing the proof"

    Only if he wants to convince you. In this case that does not appear to be the case.

    He gave his opinion.
    If you don't like it, don't take it. Thats your personal choice. He is not imposing it on you.
    Let those who consider it worthwhile use it.

    >>>>"But astrologers, vastu 'consultants' propagate their 'personal belief' in public domain, so they must be prepared for publics reaction as well. "

    They don't force it on you.
    Why should you react ?

    >>>>>"There will be a small minority in public who will question that. You cant stop them too."

    Sure, if you are interested in the knowledge, do question and find out.
    If you are not, then you have no reason to.
    Allow those who are interested in such things to engage in them.
    Why shouldn't they ?

    It is the belief that other people should conform to your way of thinking, which you are convinced is the only right way, that is the root cause of strife in this world.

    As mentioned before in this comments section, that attitude has caused deaths of millions of people, destruction of entire civilisations and extinction of thousands of species of animals, birds and plants.

    How many more deaths will such attitudes cause ?

    One fundamental thing that you must understand is that Nature by nature is diverse.

    And that goes for human beings too.
    When you demand conformity in opinion, beliefs, you go against Nature.


    -----------------

    @ Anonymous

    >>>>>Suppose a builder is constructing a housing complex for 100 people. Each has his or her personal VaastuShastra/FengShui/Numerology expert. Then what?"

    There is conflict resolution through discussion.

    >>>>>"Where does "name call" come in my friend?"

    You haven't understood that exchange. Read again.

    >>>>>>"VaastuShastra/FengShui/Numerology is neither VERIFIABLE nor LOGICALLY CONSISTENT. "

    Prejudiced mind is not scientific.

    >>>>>"So you find Sanjay B Jumaaaaaaaaaaani giving one prediction and Bejan Daruwala giving another ( or as Bejan claims, it is actually "Says Ganesha" and not him). THAT'S why numerology is pseudo-science, not because of Sujai's disbelief or someone's belief in it."

    In quantum mechanics, if you look for wave characterstics in an electron, you will find that. If you look for particle characterstics, you will find that.
    So ?

    Would you say quantum mechanics is pseudo-science ?

    >>>>>"Sujai has evaluated the said numerologist's logic. "

    How do you evaluate something without studying it.

    >>>>>"You got a problem with that?""

    The problem is with prejudiced minds denying others the right to free thinking.

    >>>>>"Nobody is denying you the freedom to evaluate and arrive at your own conclusion. "

    You are, when you condemn those who do so.

    >>>>>"you should also respect Sujai's freedom. "

    Not the freedom to take away another's.

    >>>>"As Voltaire said:
    " I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it""

    But you are trying to muffle numerologists.

    >>>>>"..if your beliefs start affecting me. When i) Ram Sene's Pravin Mutalik's belief that women should not drink in pubs"

    Let him have such personal beliefs.

    Why should his personal belief, as you called it, affect you .

    >>>>"ii) Raj Thakerey's belief that Mumbai is for Maharashtrians only"

    Again, why should this personal belief, as you called it, affect you.

    People who impose their personal beliefs on others are liable to be arrested as happened in Manglore and Mumbai.

    >>>>>"iii) VHP and Bajrang Dal's belief that muslims of Gujrat should be burnt alive "

    I heard it was some karsewaks who were burnt alive in a train by a muslim mob.

    Didn't know that those karsewaks were muslims. and that the muslim mob that burnt them were VHP and Bajrang Dal activists.

    How things get twisted around.
    No wonder Twista is still around, immune to the long arm of law.

    >>>>>"it is time to drop neutrality and take a stand."

    When were you neutral when you never let go of your prejudices.

    >>>>>"...they had to prove it to be accepted as Science. if astrologers claim Astrology is Science, the onus is on THEM to prove it, not us to disprove them."

    They are not seeking your acceptance.

    >>>>>"Till then rational beings like me and Sujai will continue to ridicule them."

    The qualification you have chosen is inappropriate.
    When you condemn something based on prejudice, it is called 'irrational'.
    And when you ridicule another his choice, it is called 'intolerant'.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Dear Incognito ,
    I agree that ppl have rights believe what they want to believe. At the same time ppl like us will laugh on them and critisize them bcos they sound plain stupid..

    If ppl think that nobody shd be laughing at thier beliefs, then they shd not have those funny belief in first place...

    and such beliefs harm progress of sociey and country .. so they shd be treated harshly.... sorry dear...

    Vipul

    ReplyDelete
  24. "Have you actually found something wrong in what i said here –
    “Astrology, vastu….dont do either”.
    "

    I'll take that as a "No" (that you haven't studied them first-hand) :)

    "Rephrasing what i already said, the basic laws of economics are verifiable and logically consistent which makes it a valid study. One can live with good and bad economists."How many economists predicted the economic meltdown, if their laws are verifiable and logically consistent? If not, why not and what use are their laws and models? Of course we can live with bad economists - but we are paying the price through bail-outs at taxpayers' expense. Was any economic adviser fired for failure to warn those in a position to make corrective decisions? That's the power of a PhD - if tomorrow, they start giving out PhDs to astrologers, you'd automatically develop respect for them and start living with bad and good astrologers.

    cheers.
    -ChirKut

    ReplyDelete
  25. "Cool. So let's keep Sati going, casteism growing, people can go copulate with their sons and daughters as long as it is within their house,minors can continue being made to work, martial rape can be legalized, homosexuality should not be a problem to moral dickheads, and we will all live happily ever after."
    I see no issue with voluntary sati, just as I see no issue with euthanasia. Both come under freedom granted to a person to end his/her life if and when they want to, for whatever reason they see fit. Why should I judge them for it, or impose restrictions on their freedom to end their life?

    By the way, how many cases of sati have happened in India, and over what time period and in how many states? Let's see you come up with some quantitative figures and analyze them, on which you formed your biased opinion. Why is sati even an issue today? Do you similarly hold Germans of today responsible for Nazism, Europeans responsible for colonialism and racism, and Americans for slavery? Or is it just you who likes to carry the burden of the past on your shoulders? What are you, a masochist who enjoys self-flagellation and who is unable to let go of the past? Or are you trying to prove it to someone how "liberal" you are?


    Similarly, I have no issue with caste, but I do have an issue with caste discrimination. There's a subtle difference between the two. Social divisions and social strata exist in every country and every society - I doubt that you would consider marrying the daughter/son of your cleaning lady. Or that Ambani's daughter would consider marrying their gardener's son. People seek out others who are within the ballpark of their own social status and similar education levels - be it for friendship or relationship, and everyone tries to move upwards and better their situation. Why is it such a big deal and what makes it so bad? Are you feeling some guilt? Did your parents set goals for you to become a doctor/engineer/teacher, or a rickshaw driver/barber, not that there's anything wrong with those last two professions? If you think social divisions are so wrong, you are free to set goals for your kids that aim for them to become rickshaw drivers or daily-wage laborers. :)

    Start setting an example for the society with yourself instead of telling others to change. :)
    -chirKuT

    ReplyDelete
  26. Incognito,

    We are open minded enough to listen to anything from anybody. All we ask the claimants is to back it up with evidence. To which you say - "Only if he wants to convince you". You also add >>”If you don’t like it, don’t take it.”
    Exactly thats what we did, and then you come back with "A closed mind would reject many aspect due to prejudice". Where IS the prejudice?
    And why dont you extend your right to 'believe differently' to santa claus believers.
    Why do you have THIS for them >>"Won’t his friends tell him"
    Why are astrology disbelievers prejudiced and his friends not?

    >>you believe your parents are your parents. Whats the reason.
    From a continued observation of a lifetime, i have found my parents
    honest and faithful to each other. Pls note, that was my observation, not
    faith, wish or imagination. That observation made my conclude they are indeed my parents.
    Likewise i asked you the basis for believing that a building can spell doom.
    Also, if you cant provide a basis, why cant it be called irrational.
    And since you asked, we are talking about Vikas soudha ( auxillary building of vidhan soudha). Vidhan soudha, as you would know is the legislative assembly of Karnataka. It was commissioned by SM Krishna GOVERNMENT in 2003 and has cost the ex-chequer 150 crore, reports Deccan herald.
    And i would accept responsibility if its occupants were 'doomed' if you can show me
    how 'bad vastu' was the REASON behind it.

    >> They dont force it on you. Why should you react?
    What would you do if you see a tantrik/vaid torturing someone to exorcise him
    of 'ghosts'? Lets assume that the subject himself is also a believer.
    I dont know what you would do. Perhaps, you would walk by citing - doesnt affect me.
    Or perhaps you would even approve of the proceeding just like you think its the govt BUILDING that results in lesser productivity of its occupants.
    But i would make a strong appeal to the the victim, asking him not to let his blind belief overcome his thinking faculties. And yeah, everyone is a supporter of free choice here, so we would still leave the decision to him.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Chirkut,

    >> I'll take that as a "No" (that you haven't studied them first-hand).

    Why? Because i didnt reply as a 'yes'? And if i did, how would you have verified that?
    My replying as a 'yes' or 'no' to your question would have added nothing to the discussion.
    If you want to show there are gaps in my undestanding, use my posts.

    >> How many economists prediced the meltdown if their laws are verifiable and consistent.
    The BASIC laws are verfiable and consistent. A predictive model is as good or as bad as the economist himself, just like the accuracy of a doctors diagnosis. I think sandip has explained that well in his post above. did u read it?
    If bad economists make you mad, address it to the right authorities. Mentioning them here is a digression from the
    topic.

    >> if they start giving out Ph.d's to astrologers, you would start developing respect for them.

    Nope. Ph.d's would lose its.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @ Nandini

    >>>>>>"We are open minded enough to listen to anything from anybody. "

    Sometimes we overrate ourselves.

    >>>>>"All we ask the claimants is to back it up with evidence. "

    Have you ?

    >>>>>>"To which you say - "Only if he wants to convince you".

    If the claimant did not get to hear your question he may not even try.

    >>>>>>"You also add >>If you don’t like it, don’t take it.
    Exactly thats what we did,"

    Sure only thats what you did ?

    >>>>>>"and then you come back with "A closed mind would reject many aspect due to prejudice". Where IS the prejudice?"

    Pre-judgement of irrationality

    >>>>>>>"And why dont you extend your right to 'believe differently' to santa claus believers. Why do you have THIS for them >>"Won’t his friends tell him"

    Who is a santa claus believer ?
    Are you one ?

    >>>>>>>>"Why are astrology disbelievers prejudiced and his friends not?"

    Who are these friends ?

    >>>>>>>>"From a continued observation of a lifetime, i have found my parents honest and faithful to each other. Pls note, that was my observation, not faith, wish or imagination. That observation made my conclude they are indeed my parents."

    From a continued observation of a lifetime, some have found truths in the subjects under dicussion. Pls note, that was their observation, not faith, wish or imagination. That observation made them conclude that there is indeed truth in these subjects.

    Yet, someone who has no knowledge of your parents may question your conclusion.

    Such people who haven't put in a lifetime of study, as you have, should really not question your conclusion just on the basis of lack of DNA test.
    Should they ?

    >>>>>>>>"Likewise i asked you the basis for believing that a building can spell doom."

    The person who made such prediction is better equipped to explain that.

    >>>>>>"Also, if you cant provide a basis, why cant it be called irrational."

    Without giving that person a chance, why do you call it irrational.

    >>>>>>"...And since you asked, we are talking about Vikas soudha..."

    Now that you have made clear the identity of the building, please also make clear the identity of the Vastu expert who advised against using that building, the reason he gave, the identity of the officers who objected to shifting in citing that as the reason and the current status of the building.

    >>>>>>>"What would you do if you see a tantrik/vaid torturing someone to exorcise him of 'ghosts'?

    Have you seen anything like that ?

    Or is it the product of the same imagination that made an idiot the Head of Postal Services and believers in Santa Claus among adults ?

    >>>>>>"Lets assume that the subject himself is also a believer."

    How many more assumptions ?

    >>>>>>"I dont know what you would do. Perhaps, you would walk by citing - doesnt affect me.Or perhaps you would even approve of the proceeding .."

    When you take yourself into the realm of speculations and imaginations, you take yourself away from reality.

    No need to condemn others based on what you speculate up.

    >>>>>>"just like you think its the govt BUILDING that results in lesser productivity of its occupants."

    That is your conclusion.
    My suggestion was to examine all possibilities.

    >>>>>>"But i would make a strong appeal to the the victim, asking him not to let his blind belief overcome his thinking faculties."

    You should not take your flights of fancies so seriously

    >>>>>"And yeah, everyone is a supporter of free choice here, so we would still leave the decision to him."

    Thank God.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Why? Because i didnt reply as a 'yes'? And if i did, how would you have verified that?
    Where does the question of verification enter? We're discussing this on the internet, and the basic assumption - at least from my side - is that you are honest.

    >> How many economists prediced the meltdown if their laws are verifiable and consistent.

    The BASIC laws are verfiable and consistent. A predictive model is as good or as bad as the economist himself, just like the accuracy of a doctors diagnosis. I think sandip has explained that well in his post above. did u read it?
    If bad economists make you mad, address it to the right authorities. Mentioning them here is a digression from the
    topic.

    Why would you assume that bad economists make me mad? I could care less for bad economists or bad astrologers - neither one gets me angry or perturbed - that's just the way the world is. I gave that as an example to illustrate a point and it's not a digression.
    -cHirkut

    ReplyDelete
  30. Incognito,

    >>Yet someone who has no knowledge of your parents can question your conclusion…should they?

    Yes, they can, provided I ask them to believe me. I don’t ask anyone to believe anything. But if I had to convince someone the veracity of my parentage, it would not be enough to say – “Take my word, I have observed them all these years”. They would rightly say – “But I have not, where’s the proof”.
    In short, when you make a claim, you bear the responsibility of furnishing evidence.

    >>Without giving that person a chance, why do you call it irrational.

    This is not about one Mr Bharrati or about Mr X who predicted doom for a buildings occupant. We are questioning the subject, not the worth of individual practitioners. We call it pseudo-science because it asks followers to accept its premises on faith, not proof. If you can show otherwise, do it.

    >> Who is Santa believer? Are you one?
    >> Is it the product of same mind that made that idiot the head of post office?

    Pointless questions. You are avoiding answering the question – why only certain belief are included in your right to “believe differently”. Why do you call santa believers “idiot” and astrology believers as people with different belief?
    Did you (dis)prove Santa’s existence before calling them idiots?

    >>Pls make clear the identity of vastu expert..the identity of officers..curent status of building.

    Pointless question again. For sometime you were not aware of which building you are arguing about and asked – “shouldn’t builders build according to customer’s preference”. When pointed out that it is a government building, you raised questions about the technicality of it being a government building>> “when govt officials refused to occupy it”. When that was also explained, you ask who the vastu experts and the individual ministers were.
    Can you explain what you are going to do with an answer to that. I ask this especially because you have already absolved yourself of any explanation of the veracity of prediction by saying
    >>The person who MADE (emphasis mine) such prediction is better equipped to explain that.

    >> What would you do if you see a tantrik torturing someone to exorcise him of ‘ghosts’?
    >> >>Have you seen anything like that?

    Yet another pointless question to avoid answers.

    >> That was your conclusion.
    If by >> One should examine all aspect, you did not imply vastu aspect – my sincere apologies. And if you did, I wasn’t “speculating”.

    Your post is not just about pointless question but unnecessary personal attack
    >> Sometimes we overrate ourselves
    >>you should not take your flights of fancies so seriously
    >> Who is a Santa claus believer? Are you one?

    If your next post to this is filled with more pointless question and personal attack, you would understand why you don’t get a reply.

    ReplyDelete
  31. @Incognito,
    1. You have used the word "PREJUDICE" half a dozen times till now ! :) Have you noticed that?
    2. Today Numerologists/Astrologers are stating numerology/astrology is science. Tomorrow someone else can claim witchcraft is a science. We will immediately refute the claim as ludicrous and irrational. What will you say then? That we are "prejudiced"(Again!:) ) ?
    3. Please state your definition of Science.
    4. Please clearly state your stand on astrology/numerology/Vaastu. Do you consider them as Science or pseudo-science ?
    5. If you do consider astrology/numerology/vaastu as science, why? Please explain.
    Jack Roberts

    ReplyDelete
  32. @ Nandini

    >>>>>>>>>"Yes, they can, provided I ask them to believe me."

    When the numerologist ask you to believe him, you can ask him to provide proof.

    In the present case neither did he ask you to believe him, nor did you ask him to provide proof.

    >>>>>>>>"We call it pseudo-science because it asks followers to accept its premises on faith, not proof."

    No, the numerologist asks you to accept his science based on experience.
    Experiment with it, and if you find it satisfactory, accept it. Else don't.

    You are doing the latter without the former.

    >>>>>>>>">> Who is Santa believer? Are you one?
    >> Is it the product of same mind that made that idiot the head of post office?
    Pointless questions. "

    The point is that there are no Santa believers.
    Not even among children, unless they have been deliberately misled. Even then, when they grow up, they reject the notion.

    The question is meant to show you the ridiculous nature of the argument that you have put forward.

    >>>>>>>>>"You are avoiding answering the question – why only certain belief are included in your right to “believe differently”.

    The question- Who is Santa believer? Are you one? is meant to find out if there are any Santa believers.
    Only if it is confirmed that there Santa believers does the question of including them in the right to 'believe differently' arise.

    >>>>>>>>>"Why do you call santa believers “idiot”

    If you pay more attention, you will realise that Santa believers haven't been called idiots.

    The question was, how can a person who does not do his duty of delivering Christmas presents get promoted to the post of Head of Postal Services ?

    Such an eventuality can occur only if rest of the people of the dept, who would be candidates for the same post, are idiots.

    Which goes on to show up the ridiculous assumptions of the person who put forward that argument in the first place and of those who persist with that argument despite being shown up for what it is.

    >>>>>>>>>"... Did you (dis)prove Santa’s existence ....?"

    Is there anybody who believes in Santa's existence that it needs to be disproved ?

    It is this line of ridiculous thoughts that leads you to deny another his right to hold beliefs that do not conform to yours.

    You fail to understand this fact.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>">>Pls make clear the identity of vastu expert..the identity of officers..curent status of building. Pointless question again. For sometime you were not aware of which building you are arguing about and asked – “shouldn’t builders build according to customer’s preference”. When pointed out that it is a government building, you raised questions about the technicality of it being a government building>> “when govt officials refused to occupy it”. When that was also explained, you ask who the vastu experts and the individual ministers were.

    First you talk of a 'building'.
    Later you call it 'government building'.
    Then you call it 'Vikas Soudha'.

    You must realise that everybody does not reside in Banglore.
    Even those who reside there need not know what building you are talking about unless you clarify it up front.

    I attempted a search on the net to get details of the issue. However the results were not informative.
    That is why I asked you to provide certain details.

    >>>>>>>>>Can you explain what you are going to do with an answer to that.

    Try to understand your point of view, i.e., if your answers are based on facts.

    >>>>>>>>>">> "What would you do if you see a tantrik torturing someone to exorcise him of ‘ghosts’? " >> >>Have you seen anything like that?Yet another pointless question to avoid answers.

    Wrong again.

    The point, as before, is to show you that your arguments are based on flights of fancy. Not reality.

    That it is these flights of fancies that makes you deny others their basic human rights.
    Understand ?

    >>>>>>>>>"If by >> One should examine all aspect, you did not imply vastu aspect – my sincere apologies. And if you did, I wasn’t “speculating”.

    The statement "One should examine all aspects" does not mean "its the govt BUILDING that results in lesser productivity of its occupants."

    The 'flights of fancy' referred above is the cause behind your such conclusion.

    Understand yet ?

    >>>>>>>>>>"Your post is not just about pointless question but unnecessary personal attack >> Sometimes we overrate ourselves >>you should not take your flights of fancies so seriously >> Who is a Santa claus believer? Are you one?"

    What is personal in the inclusive "we" of the first statement ?

    And what is 'attacking' in the gentle suggestion of the second statement ?

    The third question, far from attacking you personally was meant to find out if there are any Santa believers. Since you harped on the existence of such people, the question naturally arose whether you were one.

    That you consider these innocuous statements as personal attack reinforces the idea that your flights of fancies are adversely affecting your discriminating ability.

    >>>>>>>>>"If your next post to this is filled with more pointless question and personal attack, you would understand why you don’t get a reply."

    I would rather hope that absence of reply would indicate that you have abandoned your flights of fancies for realistic thinking.

    Thank you

    -------------------

    @ Anony

    >>>>>>>>>>"1. You have used the word "PREJUDICE" half a dozen times till now ! :) Have you noticed that?"

    Is that all that you noticed ?

    >>>>>>>>>"2. Today Numerologists/Astrologers are stating numerology/astrology is science. Tomorrow someone else can claim witchcraft is a science."

    What is the relation ?

    >>>>>>>>>...We will immediately refute the claim as ludicrous and irrational. What will you say then?

    That you should not try to cross bridges before you come upon them.

    >>>>>>>>"3. Please state your definition of Science."

    A field of pursuit wherein you examine all facts before pronouncing judgements.

    >>>>>>>>>>>"4. Please clearly state your stand on astrology/numerology/Vaastu. Do you consider them as Science or pseudo-science ?"

    I consider that people should be free to pursue any field of knowledge that they consider worthwhile without having to face opposition from a group who thinks only their way of thinking is correct and wants to make the rest conform to that way.

    >>>>>>>>>>Do you consider them as Science or pseudo-science ?
    5. If you do consider astrology/numerology/vaastu as science, why? Please explain.

    Any field of study that is approached with an open mind, with a readiness to conduct experiments in order to ascertain truth is science.

    Any attempt to deny others the right to make such a study is bigotry.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Hi
    Is there any scientific study prooving vasthu/numorology as pseudo sciences ? Do we consider them unscientific as they are very ancient?

    ReplyDelete
  34. There is no science behind astrology/vastu/numerology.

    ppl who follow or support them are plain stupid. I am actually sad bcos they take India back to 12th century...

    There is absoultely no science behind astrology/numerology...

    Vipul

    ReplyDelete
  35. Hi

    Can you please forward study/link which proves or disproves nemerology as psuedo?There is no rationale saying openions several times

    ReplyDelete
  36. We are the one who define number system with base 10, we could have used base 11.

    We are the one who defined start date 1st Jan, 1 A.D. There is no natural reason for setting our counter to day 1 on that fateful day.

    What if somebody has labelled 1st Jan, one day after. That will change all my future (acc. to calculations) ?

    lol...

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
  38. The myth is the bane of Indian society and by using it intelligently one can easily befool the masses.Numerology is also now finding its toll in innumerable innocent people to be easy prey. During recently concluded cricket world cup, every channel has its own share of numerologist to predict not only resut of the match but also performence of individual player.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hello,
    Retrograde planets are extremely interesting.Numerology derives the mysterious relationship between numbers and physical objects or living things.

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete

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