Tuesday, October 31, 2006

Is Homosexuality natural?

I was reading some of the news items on this topic. Most of the authors seem to address this issue using the words like ‘unnatural’, ‘abnormal’, as if it is an ailment or handicap that can be remedied or corrected. Here’s an article that appeared in THE HINDU recently:

Mohana Krishnaswamy, who says that he is a ‘paramedical person by qualification’, writes,

“ …arrested on charges of homosexual practice. The remedy to that should be to educate the police and make them more human, to sympathise with the conditions of abnormality in human behaviour…”

“While we can sympathise with people practising homosexuality, it is an altogether socially, ethically and medically unacceptable idea to treat them as normal. There are no homosexuals among any species of animals. Such practice is fundamentally against nature. With all our sympathy, we have to treat them as abnormal.”

Before I start giving out my position on this, I would like define certain terms, like what is ‘natural’, ‘normal’ and ‘human’? Natural is something that is found in the nature without the intervention of man. Trees, rocks, mountains are natural, while plastic is artificial. Sex, suckling, reproduction, baby care, etc are natural, since it is found in certain higher order animals. These are natural and biological. Feelings, conscience, sense of justice, ability to produce music and art, etc, are human, and not necessarily found even in higher order mammals. These are natural and in addition, they are human.

Now, do we accept everything that is biological and natural as acceptable? Not really! Killing another human (not for food) can easily be shown to be natural, but we do not accept it. There are certain traits which are found in humans, like war, kill for sport (not for food), rape, etc, which are natural to humans but not necessarily desirable. Therefore a certain sense of law and order and its affiliated institutions are introduced, which are entirely human, to suppress, control or curb certain human traits. Therefore, though certain things are natural, we consider some of them to be inhuman. Now what is normal? When something deviates from what is expected, it is 'not normal'. For example, deafness or blindness is considered 'not normal'. It is deficiency or a handicap by which a person will not function the same way as any normal person would (of course, this is highly debatable). A person who is born with a deformity of hand will not be able to perform certain actions the way a normal person would and hence it is considered abnormality.

Coming to homosexuality, Is it ‘unnatural’, ‘abnormal’, or ‘inhuman’?

Homosexuality is natural

Homosexuality is found in many other animal and bird species. Wikipedia lists nearly 500 species of mammals, birds, fish and other animals which display homosexuality. Recently a museum opened up in Oslo, Norway, exhibiting homosexuality among animals. There is documentary evidence of homosexual behavior in giraffes, penguins, parrots, beetles, whales and dozens of other creatures. One of the exhibit statement says- "We may have opinions on a lot of things, but one thing is clear -- homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom, it is not against nature". Geir Soeli, the project leader of the exhibition entitled "Against Nature", says: "Homosexuality has been observed for more than 1,500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them." According to this news report, Greek philosopher Aristotle observed apparent homosexual behavior among hyenas 2,300 years ago but evidence of animal homosexuality has often been ignored by researchers, perhaps because of distaste, lack of interest or fear or ridicule. Bonobos, a type of chimpanzee, very close to humans according genetic studies, are among extremes in having sex with either males or females, apparently as part of social bonding. According to Soeli, "Bonobos are bisexuals, all of them.”

The Oslo Natural History Museum concludes human homosexuality cannot be viewed as "unnatural".

Homosexuality is normal

Homosexuality is found in every culture, every religion, every nation, in both female and male, and at all ages. It has been found since time immemorial and is in fact as old as human itself. It is not something very different from a left-handedness, which is seen in minority population but is still normal. It is not a handicap by which a homosexual is not able to perform certain physical or mental activities which a heterosexual can. Except for sexual orientation, a homosexual is similar to a heterosexual. It is neither a genetic defect nor a biological abnormality. Homosexuals are normal people with a different sexual orientation.

Is homosexuality legal, moral, inhuman or common?

One has to understand that law is made by man to control man. There were many things that were illegal once, like pre-marital sex, which are now completely legal. While some legal things in past, like slavery, are made illegal now. Homosexuality is legal in very few parts of the world, and in most parts of the world it remains illegal. Coming to whether it is ethical or moral, I don’t want to debate. It is up to individual’s opinion; I leave it to my readers. I do not think it is inhuman either since it does not involve in encroaching on other people’s rights or freedom. It does not bring harm to other people or cause inconvenience to them. There is no reason to treat it as a crime.

But yes, I agree that is not common, and if it is, it is hidden, and hence most of us do not know about it. Just because we do not know about it doesn’t make it go away, make it unnatural or abnormal.

Conclusion

Homosexuality is completely natural, completely normal, but yes, it is uncommon. We may have grown up not knowing about it, but there is a way to teach the young generations about it. As a kid, I haven’t known many things- I didn’t know about sex or pornography. There is a way one can know about these things. If the teaching is shunned or if it is done in the negative light as seen from the above article written in THE HINDU, we will not be able to understand it and may grow negative or wrong prejudices and start targeting homosexuals.


To consider homosexuality to be unnatural or abnormal is completely wrong. It’s not an ailment that can be cured; it’s not a disease that can be eradicated. It is not a mental condition that can be corrected through therapy. If your kid is homosexual, accept him/her. If you are a believer in God, consider the kid to be a creation of that God. If that God has created homosexuals in animals, so he did in humans. And if you are an atheist, like me, I don’t think you need to be told anything, you already know it.


Related links:

[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].

61 comments:

  1. Being homosexual itself is not a crime or a sin. Acting on lustful homosexual feelings by engaging in sexual acts with the same sex IS a sin. It is clearly stated in the bible. Just as sex outside of marriage is a sin. Sin, (all sin inluding Homosexuality) was brought into the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and let satan tempt them. So you are right about that, homosexuality has existed in man from the earliest of days. But that does not make it ok any more than it makes murder, adultry, or stealing ok. those sins have also existed for centuries. And I do believe that homosexuality hurts people, it hurts those who engage in the sinful acts. Sin separates us from God, and no sin is greater than any other. You may be homosexual but that doesnt mean you have to sin and act on sexual feelings. If someone was attracted to dead bodies and said they couldnt help themselves its just how they were born, does that make it ok to have sex with a corpse? I know that is an extreme example but Im just making a point. Just because you have the desire to do something doesnt mean its ok to do it. Its all about "if it feels good, do it' these days. Obviously I believe in God and completely dissagree with that trend. I think homosexuality is something you could be born with. but I think that because there are people born with 2 sets of sexual organs, so it is possible to be born with messed up hormones that would make you more feminine as a man or more masculine as a woman and I beleive its that type of chemical abnormality or what ever you want to call it, that would cause a person to be attracted to the same sex. Obviously Im not a doctor, that is just my personl thoughts. But I also beleive that a majority of gay people (mostly females) today are a product of bad or abusive relationships, and "experimenting". the media today makes homosexuality look like a normal trendy way to be. not to mention the mens point of view on lesbianism being "attractive". its in movies, magazines, you name it. protraying lesbianism as natural beautiful act between two "hot chicks".

    Anyway, my thoughts are these; God says homosexual acts are a sin and will separate you from Him. If you ask forgiveness for that sin (and every sin you commit) God will forgive you and welcome you into his kingdom. If you do not, youre taking your chances with satan. And let me just also say that no one is perfect or sinless. only Jesus was. EVERYONE including myself will continue to sin till the day we die, that is why we need Jesus in the first place. We area ALL sinners. but all we have to do is ask God to forgive us and do our best not to repeat the same mistakes. God loves each of us.

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    1. Your translations are incorrect. The words used in the bible do not translate into "homosexuality" - sexual orientation is a modern pyscho/social concept. The supposed ancient writers of your bible had no concept of sexual orientation.

      Those words more closely translate to male prostitution and in some cases - male rape.

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    2. True the Bible never specifically speaks of homosexual acts. It does though say that for a man to lie with another man, as with a woman, is an abomination. That is a description of a homosexual act.

      I believe Shannon said "God says homosexual acts are a sin" to make the case easier to understand.

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    3. It does say that if you lie with a man, as you would a woman it is a sin. But, the fact is the Bible was poorly translated. Some words in English do not have exact equivalents in other languages and vice versa.

      If you use the LITERAL translation from Hebrew to English, Lev 18:22 translates to something to the effect of "And with a male, thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination." So your view on homosexuality depends on your view of whether you willing to accept the Bible has been mistranslated in MANY places.

      http://hoperemains.webs.com/leviticus1822.htm

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    4. amen...

      this's very touching...

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    5. The idea of "Sin" is Unnatural. 'Sin" is a man made concept, Animals do not have any concept of "Sin". In fact religion is unnatural. Animals don't go to church, pray, read a bible etc. Religion & Sin are too completely man-made concepts, & anything man made is unnatural.

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  2. Homosexuality is neither a sin nor a crime. If it is sin then heterosexuals having sex is also a sin or crime, cause sex is not used among heterosexuals just for reproduction. If sex exists only for reproduction then why don't humans have a breeding time like all other living species. If we want understand sexuality then we must be able to comprehend our complex brains first and judge homosexuals

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  3. Superbly analysed: a must-read for atheists, theists and agnostics alike. Will be checking out your blog for more!

    peace, Ramki

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  4. Dear Shannon,

    There are entirely too many different levels on which I disagree with you and I'm not even sure where to start.

    It would be pointless to talk to you about science and knowledge since in your Judeo-Abrahamic worldview even knowledge is considered sinful . Perhaps your ignorance provides you with comfort. To some of us, rationality, truth and knowledge matter more than comfort.

    Since you've been born into sin and have probably led a sinful life(at least by your own standards) you might as well commit the original sin of eating from the tree of knowledge and learn a little bit about what the(wo)men of reason have been upto all this while. I would recommend googling Thomas Paine, Charles Darwin, Arthur Holmes, Simone de Beauvoir, Michel Faucault, George Gamow and Albert Einstein for a start.

    According to your perverted logic pedohpiles(you don't have to ACT on your urges to be a pedophile.. its enough to prefer kids) are more virtuous than heterosexual couples which engages in premarital sex or homosexual couples which even indulge in foreplay( or is oral sex acceptable?).

    Your stereotyping homosexual and bisexual men as effeminate just serves to highlight your provincial upbringing.

    I'm sorry that you lead such a sinful life. I'm sorry you live in shame and I'm sorry that you will first go to hell.

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  5. Development Of Sexual Orientation

    Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. states:

    Recent political pressure has resulted in a denial of the importance of the factor most strongly implicated by decades of previous clinical research: developmental factors, particularly the influence of parents. A review of the literature on male homosexuality reveals extensive reference to the prehomosexual boy’s relational problems with both parents (West 1959, Socarides 1978, Evans 1969); among some researchers, the father-son relationship has been particularly implicated (Bieber et al 1962, Moberly 1983). (http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html).

    One psychoanalytic hypothesis for the connection between poor early father-son relationship and homosexuality is that during the critical gender-identity phase of development, the boy perceives the father as rejecting. As a result, he grows up failing to fully identify with his father and the masculinity he represents.

    Non-masculine or feminine behavior in boyhood has been repeatedly shown to be correlated with later homosexuality (Green, 1987, Zuger, 1988); taken together with related factors, particularly the often-reported alienation from same-sex peers and a poor relationship with the father, this suggests a failure to fully gender-identify. In its more extreme form, this same syndrome (usually resulting in homosexuality) is diagnosed as Childhood Gender-Identity Deficit (Zucker and Bradley, 1996).

    One likely cause for “failure to identify” is a narcissistic injury inflicted by the father onto the son (who is usually temperamentally sensitive) during the preoedipal stage of the boy’s development. This hurt appears to have been inflicted during the critical gender-identity phase when the boy must undertake the task of assuming a masculine identification. The hurt manifests itself as a defensive detachment from masculinity in the self, and in others. As an adult, the homosexual is often characterized by this complex which takes the form of “the hurt little boy” (Nicolosi, 1991). (http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html)

    As previously mentioned, the person’s own interpretations of his childhood are a matter of importance in the development of his sexual orientation.

    Homosexuality is almost certainly due to multiple factors and cannot be reduced solely to a faulty father-son relationship. Fathers of homosexual sons are usually also fathers of heterosexual sons-so the personality of the father is clearly not the sole cause of homosexuality….

    Other factors in the development of homosexuality include a hostile, feared older brother; a mother who is a very warm and attractive personality and proves more appealing to the boy than an emotionally removed father; a mother who is actively disdainful of masculinity; childhood seduction by another male; peer labeling of the boy due to poor athletic ability or timidity; in recent years, cultural factors encouraging a confused and uncertain youngster into an embracing gay community; and in the boy himself, a particularly sensitive, relatively fragile, often passive disposition. (http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html)

    A recently completed doctoral dissertation by Gregory Dickson, Ph.D. found statistically significant differences between the childhood recollections of heterosexual and homosexual men. The dissertation was entitled An Empirical Study of the Mother-Son Dyad in Relation to the Development of Adult Male Homosexuality: An Object Relations Perspective.

    A total of 135 men were surveyed-57 egodystonic homosexuals, 34 egosyntonic homosexuals, and 44 heterosexuals from various parts of the U.S. Utilizing the Parent-Child Relations Questionnaire (PCR-II; Siegelman & Roe, 1979), the study found that heterosexual males recalled a much better relationship with their mothers. These men reported a significantly more loving, less demanding, and less rejecting mother than did homosexual males.

    The study further found that male homosexuals reported significantly higher levels of current depression, as well as significantly higher levels of childhood sexual abuse than their heterosexual peers.

    Commenting on the findings, Dr. Dickson stated:

    A cursory review of research to date suggests a lack of uniform findings on the role of the mother-son relationship in the development of male homosexuality. Some authors have found a close, overly protective mother, while others have found the opposite a less loving, more demanding, and more rejecting mother. While these results are seemingly contradictory, further investigation reveals an underlying consistency, in that the homosexual male has repeatedly reported a significantly different relationship with his mother than that reported by his heterosexual peers. Whether he reported her as overly close or distant, a negative relational pattern is apparent.

    …It is reasonable to assume that either type of relationship (overly close or distant) may negatively impact the developing boy's ability to complete the necessary steps leading toward the accomplishment of the developmental tasks of individuation and separation. The overly close and binding relationship with the mother may prevent the young boy from "abandoning" her in order to join his father and his male peers. Likewise, the overly distant relationship may not allow him to feel secure enough in the mother's love to leave it in order to explore peer relationships with other boys.

    Findings of this study and of Dickson (1996) also support findings in the literature, which suggest that the adult male homosexual has experienced a greater dissimilarity of relationships between his mother and father during his developmental years than did his heterosexual peers. The current study drew upon previous literature regarding the healthy early triangulation in which the boy is able to develop both a sense of connectedness to, and distance from, both parents. "A lack of this healthy triangulation," stated Dr. Dickson, "may result in the developing boy finding himself 'stuck' between parents. He must choose one parent over the other. It appears that this phenomenon is present and much more extreme in homosexual development."

    Furthermore, the study sheds light on the potential relationship of a history of sexual abuse and the development of adult male homosexuality. An alarming 49% of homosexuals surveyed, compared to less than 2% of heterosexuals, reported sexual abuse.

    Results of this study underscore the importance of a need for increased understanding of the effects of sexual abuse in the development of adult male homosexuality. Dr. Dickson's findings are congruent with those of Finkelhor (1984) which found that boys victimized by older men were four times more likely to be currently involved in homosexuality than were non-victims. All of the respondents in Dr. Dickson's study reported their molestation as having occurred by a male perpetrator; none reported female abusers. This finding, perhaps one of the most significant of Dr. Dickson's study, suggests that sexual abuse should be considered in evaluating etiologic factors contributing to the development of adult male homosexuality. Dickson stated, "An experience of sexual abuse could possibly contribute to the sexualizing of the unmet needs for male affection, attention, and connection."

    Commenting on the abuse factor, Dr. Dickson stated:

    It is possible that the male child who experiences the negative relational pattern with his mother along with the less present and negatively perceived father becomes more susceptible to the perpetrator's advances. Given the relational deficits experienced by the male child, it is also possible that the molestation, as devastating as it may have been emotionally, simultaneously may be experienced by some of the boys as their first form of adult male affection, as well as something relational that is not shared in common with his mother. The abuse could, theoretically, be perceived by the boy as a facilitation of some form of separation-individuation between himself and mother.

    …It is also reasonable to assume that the sense of shame, secrecy, violation and anger which may result from childhood sexual abuse contributes to the development of a distorted paradigm through which the child views subsequent relationships with self and others. The duty of the parent to protect the child from all harm, as understood by the child, may be perceived as having been forsaken. If the abuse is left unresolved, subsequent parental behaviors may be experienced in a more negative way by the child and later, the adult. Additionally, the established negative relational pattern present in the family may impede the child's ability to look to his parents for assistance in resolving the pain resulting from the molestation.

    The multifaceted approach of Dr. Dickson's study helps to clarify some of the previous literature's apparent contradictions about potential contributing factors in the development of male homosexuality. His study underscores the significance of the influence of multiple environmental factors in the development of adult male homosexuality. It further emphasizes the complex, often subliminal, yet powerful forces of not only the childhood mother-son and father-son relationships, but the childhood experience of sexual abuse as all of these factors relate to the development of the child's sense of self, including gender identification and future relational choices.

    Pop culture and political rhetoric suggest that it is society's lack of acceptance that is solely responsible for pathology associated with homosexuality. Such a simplistic conclusion ignores homosexuals' repeated reports in psychology literature of conflicted parental relationships, as well as other important issues such as sexual abuse.

    Dr. Dickson stated, "The current study, in concert with past literature, suggests that the issues surrounding committed adult homosexual identification may be more core structural and relational, rather than sexual in nature."

    He concluded:

    Recent investigation of homosexuality has been hindered by the American Psychological and Psychiatric Associations' philosophical shift, which fails to consider the role of environmental factors in the development of male homosexuality. The clearly complex nature of the issue should not be oversimplified, nor should scientific exploration be limited by politics. (http://www.narth.com/docs/mothersof.html)

    Another factor that may be involved in the development of a homosexual personality might result from the ever-present argument in homosexual-accepting cultures of “Be what you are, and don’t be ashamed of it”. Many youths then start to experiment to “discover” what they really are. This experimentation may lead to an entrapment and cessation of normal sexual development. The youth, who is at an age in which there exists a normal idealization of same-sex peers, might develop an incapability to further progress to a heterosexual relationship due to the fact that he has been convinced that he is a homosexual. This indulging in homosexual relationships, with time, will trap him in a sexual habit pattern. Thus, the danger of sexual experimentation at a young age. Teenagers must be made aware that homosexual attractions do not necessarily make one a homosexual.

    Psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D states:

    Like all complex behavioral and mental states, homosexuality is…neither exclusively biological nor exclusively psychological, but results from an as-yet-difficult-to-quantitate mixture of genetic factors, intrauterine influences…postnatal environment (such as parent, sibling and cultural behavior), and a complex series of repeatedly reinforced choices occurring at critical phases of development. (Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth (1996)).

    The American Psychological Association says:

    Various theories have proposed differing sources for sexual orientation.…However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors. (From the APA’s booklet, “Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality”)

    The national organization PFLAG offers a booklet prepared with the assistance of Dr. Clinton Anderson of the American Psychological Association. Entitled, “Why Ask Why? Addressing the Research on Homosexuality and Biology,” the pamphlet says:

    To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe that there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date.…Sexuality, like every other behavior, is undoubtedly influenced by both biological and societal factors.

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  6. Good post ! God created people in a certain way, so he can't possibly be angry at them.

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    1. This is an escapist statement. If we want to rely on "God wanted..." for every act, then, let's not discuss anything... because "God wants" global warming, species extinction, sin, rapes, US attacking Afghanistan, etc. etc.
      Those who use the above statement clearly want to just dust off all actions and provide ambiguity to debates.

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  7. Dr. Paul AndersonNovember 10, 2006 6:36 AM

    Whether or not homosexuality is natural or not, depends on ones point of refrence. For example, if your " refrence point " or source of information is another human being that's pro - homosexual, can you really expect a contradictory opinion? If the source from which one draws their conclusion is skewed, their choice will also be skewed.
    An illistration in point: An Eastern Airlines DC-9 is on final approach to Boston's Logan Int. Airport in "0" visibility conditions. Advised by the tower to land at an alternate airport, the pilot chooses to land at Logan. The instruments seem to indicate that all is normal, as he approaches the outer-marker with both the glide slope and localizer centered. Several minutes later, the tower attempts to reach the DC-9 pilot without success. An emergency vehicle is dispatched to the scene, in an attempt to locate the aircraft. On approach the jet had struck a retaining wall and disintegrated in a ball of flames. FAA reports indicated that: a.) The pilot has ignored warnings of poor visibility. b.) The pilot had ignored the minimum catagory standards of 500 ft.of visibility for a safe landing. c.) The pilot fed the incorrect information into the flight navigation system. As a result, 125 passengers and four crew members perished that Dec. morning. Ignoring the advice of others and relying on improper information cost the pilot his life.
    If one is truly interested in whether or not Homosexuality is either immoral or un-natural, the correct source of information is God's Word the Bible. Any other source of information will provide a skewed view of the facts.
    A visit to the ancient site of Sodom and Gomorah verified my conclusion regarding this topic. If we really think that we can continue to ignore God's warnings, we are in for a surprise.

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  8. Hi Sujay

    Let us deal with some of the facts as pointed out by you.

    a. "500 species that demonstrate gay behavior"-

    What proportion does this constitute amongst all specis?

    < 1% of more than a million species

    That is a miniscule

    Amongst humans I have seen figures ranging from 5% of the population to 10%. That is again a very small minority within the population.

    The issue is not whether it is not natural or not. The fact of the matter is that a majority of people within society find it unacceptable and hence the opposition that you see in society

    Do we then ban it? No, we should not. Every minority must have the freedom to live their lives their own way. The Government has no business to interfere in our bedrooms.

    b. Is homosexuality normal?
    No
    When a man and woman do it, the two reproductive organs meet, that is logical. When men and men do it, one mans reproductive organ interfaces with the anus of the other. That has no logical sense.

    Should we then ban it? No! If two adult men agree that they like to do that, who are we to stop

    c. About morality- No comments

    regards

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  9. it is strange how people say God's word : Bible. faith is one thing, blind faith is another. but why does one forget that it was after all written by human beings. it is ok if u are preached to help the poor. tht is good. u are making someone's life better. you are making a self less gesture. but even in that you are ready to use all your discretion before u make that gesture.

    but when it comes to something like homosexuality. all discretion is thrown out of the window. because bible says so. because bible is the word of God. you have no right to comment on the bible or to ask questions. if u do then you are sinning.

    it is like forcing your faith on the rest of the world isn't it?

    its not even faith. it is your dogmatic, obstinate opinion that you want to call faith. I'm sure if Jesus were here he would have asked you to open your eyes, ears and your mind. try to understand the people around you. when you do that, Jesus's words will make sense to you automatically. you won't have to double check with the bible to see if its written there.
    Would you do that? if Jesus were to come to you and tell you something would u say, No. i won;t listen to you. what you are saying is wrong because its not written in the bible.

    or do u think that Jesus will never say anything thts not already written in the bible. Do you think you have the power or the authorityh to limit what God would say?

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  10. Interestingly, Nietzsche thought that Jesus was the last true Christian :)

    He said so, because he believed that Christianty was very different from Jesus Christ!

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  11. Great article. Agree with you.

    I love it when people use religion/religious texts to support their arguments. So convincing, don't you think?

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  12. RE: homosexuality

    Homosexuality Is Natural Part 2
    http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2007/01/homosexuality-is-natural-part-2.html

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  13. what you said before about animals not being homosexual, you are wrong. i am a zoologist, and i have seen several animals with complete homosexual tendencies. the same tendencies as homosexual humans, in point of fact, and they dont just have one brief encounter, no, it has been known homosexual animals are together for life. and it's estimated that 450 animal species, and 986 insect species have homosexuals within their numbers. you can't argue with someone who actually knows what their talking about on the subject. if anyone does not believe me, look it up!

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    1. hi,

      has homosexuality been observed in the wild among animals/birds,/bugs fishes etc or only in the zoo?
      Zoos are not a natural environment-in my view they are a prisonlike and I don't think one can generalize about animals from studies of those locked up, any more than one can study humans who are locked up and generalize about all people.

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  14. what you said about gay men being effeminate, is not true. im gay and i happen to be very masculine to the point where people consider me having testosterone poisoning! so dont commit a sin by lying about something you dont even know about

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  15. the bible says homosexuality is a sin. jesus did not mention homosexuality, but he did say that people who judge others are on their way to hell

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  16. homosexuality cannot be a sin because love can never be a sin. if two men or two women really love and care about each other, they are not sinning

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  17. i really would love to follow logic about homosexuality, unfortunatly, im not that low

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  18. you're right homosexuality is a sin, after all, a 2000 year old book cannot be wrong even though it was written in a dialect that no longer exist and is hard to tranlate accuratly.

    and all those people who says its sinful, well there you go, people are always right.

    why dont you try asking god for truth about the subject instead of trusting fools!

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  19. Whether it is natural or unnatural does not matter. If two people are doing something that does not harm others, others have no business interfering in it, even if it is unnatural.

    Criminal laws should concentrate on actions where one human harms another, murder, theft, bullying. I would rather have a law against fooling the masses by quoting texts which were actually written by humans but claimed to have been written by god.

    Plus I do not recognize the authority of god to tell me or anyone else what to do. Creating something does not make it your slave. Thus we are not slaves of god even if we were created by god.

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    1. I agree with you completely. I am a devout member of the Mennonite Brethren church (and by devout please don’t think fanatic, dogmatic or irrational. If I believe something I follow it completely that is all). God is not our owner or our master if we do not give him that authority. Furthermore, the government has no place telling us what is moral in this instance. Especially since there is something called the separation of church and state. What is determined immoral through the church then should not be reflected in the laws of a nation who does not recognize ONE deity or church. I don’t care if gay marriage is legalized or not. Either way it will not stop non-Christians from believing it to be acceptable, or to cease from participating. As for me, I don’t support it for myself. But I would never go as far as to enforce my beliefs upon others. Neither would God, that is why after we (as humans) learned of good and evil he removed himself from us that way we would have to either choose him or chose to be our own masters; and therefore determine our own right from wrong. So please, allow gays/lesbians to marry. If we do not God’s name, and his people, will only continue to be slandered; and justly so.

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  20. It doesn't matter whether homosexuality is "natural" or "unnatural." What matters is that we have two consenting adults who want to either be intimate, or live together in a loving, committed relationship. It is not my business to stop them from being happy as their actions do not affect me in any negative way.

    For all those who say that it is a "sin" based on some religious text, I'm sure the religious texts also say a lot about loving people - "hate the sin, not the sinners" is the one I'm familiar with.

    And, I cannot imagine how two gays getting married affects a heterosexual couple's marriage in a negative way at all, or more than issues of education, taxes, poverty etc. If this can be proved in a rational, logical manner, I might be willing to explore the possibility that yes, gay marriage is indeed wrong. But then, the same yardstick should be used for determining negative impacts of heterosexual marriages on gay marriages too.

    While that remains to be proved, I wish that a close relative, a son, a daughter of every person who says they hate gays comes out to them as gay. Let's see if they start hating their son/daughter for that reason. Cheney is an excellent example of this hypocrisy.

    Cheers,
    -Amit

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  21. brilliant article! very objectively analyzed. i really hope u open some ppl's minds through this, ppl indoctrinated by religious dogmas or social common-mentality.
    as u said u're an atheist, richard dawkins should be proud of someone like u!

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  22. sujai, nice post! I agree with almost all your points. But my stand is more along the lines of amit’s comment: "It doesn't matter whether homosexuality is "natural" or "unnatural." What matters is that we have two consenting adults who want to either be intimate, or live together in a loving, committed relationship. It is not my business to stop them from being happy as their actions do not affect me in any negative way."
    thanks!

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  23. i'm doing research on this topics for my assignment..i foound lots and lots of interesting personal ideas here..i agree with some of the comments but some of the others don't make any sense to me...anyway for me, homosexual or heterosexual make life in this world nowadays sound more natural..

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  24. to friend anonymous who had post a comments on March 07,2007 at 5.27 am....i really really dont agree with ur opinion.who said that love is not a sin? some kind of love lead us nearer to hell..for example when u love other allah beside Him..thats totally a sin..

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  25. I have some problems with with sujai's interpretation. Firstly, you say homosexuality is not against nature because many animals have that behaviour. I think Homosexuality is against the nature because it does not maintains the natural order of the nature. i.e producing young ones. A homosexual cannot reproduce sexually. Which is definitely against the nature.

    Now second point. You say homosexuality is not a mental condition. It cannot be treated becoz it's natural. Now researches have told that if a person is restrained from involving in sexual activities(with opp. sex) for a long period (as in a prison), he 'may' become Homosexual! So homosexuality can also be a mental condition which can be treated.

    These two are important reasons why homosexuality should not be encouraged. It is not a shame to be homosexual. You should treat them as normal humans. But u should not encourage homosexuality.



    -PSShetty

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  26. Very well written, until recently I was indifferent to Homosexuality.
    But after the delhi High courts decision, i came to realise, how a critical human right has been dennied to so many in the country for so long..

    I dont care whether its against human nature or against religious laws. So long as a person lives his life without bringing any harm to another individual, he should be free to adopt any sexual orientation he pleases. And the society, if they cannont accept it, can at least leave them alone, rather thn condemning them, or teaching the path of rightiousness.

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  27. Wrong. Homosexuality has no evolutionary significance. Reproduction is not possible in homo sexuality.

    It IS a defect. But that does not mean that homos should be treated as scum.

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  28. Is God a man? Or is she a woman? What doesn't add up is why did God create animals that possess both female and male reproduction systems and there are animals that have showed homosexual tendencies. It's a natural thing. I don't believe it's a sin. If there is a gay man or female that does good for this world, does that make them a sinner? Will they be going to hell? I think that people are just scared to open there eyes to see that religions has been flawed in some many ways because of people interpreting it their own way. Religion is bias. Love isn't and God isn't either.

    Stop living in fears of acceptence and understanding, start questioning religion. NO ONE HAS CONTROL WHERE THEY ARE BORN. Which makes it hard to say that if you were raised up from a Wiccan to an atheist upbringing would you see things differently or would you be born into a believe that condemns people for loving another person.

    Why are peoples so scared to accept people for loving one another and accept the fact that God is perfect and we humans aren't than maybe our interpretation of God's word is flawed? We share one thing is that we all want to be happy and have a sense of security. But how far will we go to condemn people from being happy and loving one another because of some books translated by a men?

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  29. Hmm.. Liked it.. Bt I do hv a few doubts.. Its lik Shannon said.. Is necrophilia (sex with corpes) normal, ethical? And if we are tokn of consensual sex, I would lik to ask, if an adult and a child agree to try it, is it okay?

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  30. Its not just religious people who are opposed to homosexuality. For a majority of Theists, atheists and agnostics its an unacceptable and deviant behaviour. People are generally not bothered about one's sexual behaviour, but it becomes a problem when homosexuals try to present their behaviour as something natural and acceptable.

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  31. Loving someone of the same sex isn't wrong in the sense that you can't help your feelings. But acting on it isn't necessarilly right. Do people really think that a man riding another man is normal and natural? Men and women were made the way we are (whether by God OR nature) so that we can reproduce, so where does gay sex come into this?

    And if animals are brought up as examples to justify gay sex, surely all that does is suggest that gays act like animals?

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  32. Mark:

    And if animals are brought up as examples to justify gay sex, surely all that does is suggest that gays act like animals?

    Yes, gays are acting like animals just like the way heterosexuals are acting like animals. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals are acting like animals. Hence, the conclusion, being gay is not unnatural.

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  33. First Wikipedia is not a trusted reference, because anyone can add and edit anything they want. Just because there is homosexuality in animals will that make it natural in humans? Animals are not humans and it really irritates me when someone make these types of comparassions. IF someone wants to defend the cause of homosexuality being natural they need to search and bring good sources of evidence. I don't judge and I believe anyone can choose what ever they want in life. However, anal cancer is most common on men who have sex with men so if that is the case don't you think there must be something wrong about anal sex?

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  34. Vanhellslinger;


    I’ve read some articles on the subject and the one thing that they didn’t cover was the most important point. Did any of the 1,500 or so species of lower intelligence creatures know, understand , have profound foresight, and guidance before having homosexual contact? Which leads to the second most important question, because these lower animals are not intelligent enough to understand their behavior does that mean homosexual humans are just as dysfunctional as lower animals? We humans know that anal cavity intercourse leads to serious infectious diseases, and therefore should apply our superior intelligence and avoid such acts.
    It appears that the articles on homosexuality in the animal kingdom are a popular propaganda tool the gays use to show that homosexuality is natural. This can be used conversely against the gay hellenization movement by simply pointing out that all of those lower animals were dysfunctional, they had a disease that left them with a hereditary malfunction, and/or they are of such a lower class of intelligence they haven’t a concrete path on the evolutionary scale. I’m sure there are other variables and factors that would certify the malfunctioning sexual identity of these creatures, and that would mean human homosexuality is also a dysfunction. Of course having a disease or one of the other less offensive names, say biological dysfunction is natural, because disease is also a fundamental force of nature.
    So when gay people try and tell you homosexuality is natural, you just tell them so is a disease. Now they won’t like you very much when you say that, but the point is all the other gay animals don’t have that problem. Homosexual lions don’t sit around and talk about the high AIDS rate among gay lions, and worry about infections. Sure the gay animals don’t have religion either. You know this whole gay attitude about homosexuality being natural really shows not only a penchant to prevaricate from intelligence but a deliberate attack on the sanctity of sanity. Yes, the left wing homosexual liberals have gone way to out of the way to present some phenomena that is completely useless. It is an act of desperation by a group that desires something right out of a sci-fi horror film titled “ Gay Vampires Are Taking Over The World”.
    THE BOTTOM LINE; How many male lions that were observed engaging in some form of homosexual behavior, went on to live happily ever after as gay lion lovers? The answer is obviously none! These guys were not at all happy with gay sex, and when the time was right one of them went up against Mr. Big, the patriarch of the pride, so he could score real heterosexual action with female lions. That’s the way the story ends on TV, two male lions fight, one dies or is wounded and the other wins all the females for himself. For all we know the homosexual acts the young male lions engaged in was done so with revulsion, contempt, hate and anger, and left them with a deep sense of frustration and sadness., if not then we would have seen on television some special titled “The Gay Lions of the Kalahari”!!

    This all leads to the next point to ponder, Is Homophobia Irrational?
    Some guy that writes for the Advocate(Jim Kirchick) wrote “ there is nothing irrational about questioning some of the more reactionary (and violent) strains of Islam”. One could apply that right back at homosexuals, should we fear gay assimilation, and is the gay rights movement provocative? We are confronted by a group that wants the right to serve in front line combat duty, and if we combine that with a little history, say like the “not so sacred band of thebes” we can paint a picture of gay aggressors that want to force America’s youth into bed. The never ending story of new sitcoms, reality TV, and movies coming out of Hollywood is already gearing up to gay rights pressure tactics, they demand the same rights blacks and other minorities did in the 60’s and 70’s, air time, with programming for the gay man. Isn’t that what we call cultural assimilation?

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  35. Hi such a nice post i have some great thought about music want to discuss Acoustic Guitar

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  36. Homosexuality is not normal activity. The bible says "Adam and Eve" not adam and steve. No animals do this so to me it is pure perversion. How any one can look at at a hairy arse compared to a beautiful woman i do not know..Pure perversion

    The world accepts too much change, and we should fight back

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  37. Those of you who are taking a religious stance, and using the argument that "God said so", need to rethink things. No one is born a Christian, no one is born believing in ancient Greek gods, such as Thor or Loki. No one is born with an inherent knowledge of religion, no one crawls their way out of the womb just to go to church on a Sunday. So, is it unnatural to be religious? Apply the same logic of "your not born with..." to your religion.

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  38. I know its five years old...but I have one thing to say to Shannon for her comment.

    Homosexuality is NOT merely a sexual attraction. It is also an emotional attachment. I have had many guys that I have been truly been in love with, and would do anything in order to make them happy. Sexual attraction had nothing to do with it. In fact...making them happy, made me happy. I cared more about how they felt than I did myself.

    But I have never once felt this way for a girl. My heart reaches out to other guys. I still care for girls as friends, but my heart yearns for love and romance with a guy. It always has...even since childhood. When I find a guy who loves me as much as I do him...I will find true peace and happiness. Until then...my efforts go towards making the ones I care about as happy as humanly possible.

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  39. I fully agree with the article.

    Homosexual tendency exists in each & every human. But the majority are heterosexuals. In an extremely small minority Homosexual tendency is "permanent". They're true Homosexuals. It's not as if they've taken to homosexuality as a choice. This cannot happen at all!

    True Homosexuals cannot revert back to Heterosexuality & vice-versa.

    A lot of these irrational views against Homosexuality are because of -
    1) Homophobia
    2) Brainless interpretation of religion (esp. Christianity)
    3) Sheer social prejudice

    But I cannot understand the mentality of one of the commentators, Senlhawp. Just read his comments:

    "i'm doing research on this topics for my assignment..i foound lots and lots of interesting personal ideas here..i agree with some of the comments but some of the others don't make any sense to me...anyway for me, homosexual or heterosexual make life in this world nowadays sound more natural.."

    &

    "to friend anonymous who had post a comments on March 07,2007 at 5.27 am....i really really dont agree with ur opinion.who said that love is not a sin? some kind of love lead us nearer to hell..for example when u love other allah beside Him..thats totally a sin.."

    DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?

    I wonder whether Senlhawp himself understood his own writings! Senlhawp, did you write that in a drunken state?

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  40. As a person who is predominantly homosexual, I have discussed the matter of child molestation with some gay friends, all of whom reported having had sexual experiences with men when they were in their preteens, and all of them welcomed the experience and usually came back for more. They do not seen to have been harmed by it, but rather it was a natural part (to them) of their experiences, from which they learned something.
    I cannot say that all such encounters would be perceived in that way, but it certainly applied to those of my friends and me. I can recall as a child wanting to have some sort of sexual encounter with an adult male, but I had never seen adults having sex, nor had I ever been approached by adults at that point, nor am I in the slightest interested in children these days, though I had plenty of child/child encounters as a child myself.
    I think that if a male child exhibits some feminine traits it is very likely that his father will feel threatened and alarmed by this and may well react with disapproval and/or anger, which then drives a wedge between him and the son and may also lead to the mother becoming over-protective in his defence .

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  41. It's interesting, this fundamental assumption that many commenters are making: that sexual activity between members of the same sex is "illogical" because it cannot result in reproduction, and thus it is unnatural.



    Pleasure and love are also "natural". Consider this thought experiment: maybe for most animals, as they do not consciously think, "time to have a baby!", the main reason to have sex is pleasure itself. Indeed, it is likely that wanting of sexual pleasure drives animals to have sex, and reproduction is a beneficial side-effect. You can say, "God makes animals feel pleasure to drive them to reproduce," but this makes no sense on many levels. First, "God" did not have to make sexual pleasure at all. He also did not have to make possible for animals to find pleasure in a variety of places.



    Hell, we're finally just confirming that women can experience orgasm through exercise. Biology allows this, not sin or opinion. What does this tell you about how very little we truly know about sexuality?

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  42. Dear Shannon,
    You say not to act on these feelings, but do you realize how stupid that sounds?
    That's like me telling you not to eat, or to go to the toilet.
    It is something that occurs, and whether you think it is natural or not, the is no way to completely ignore sexual desire.
    And also I would like to point out that child molestation is very different because rather than two people choosing to embrace one another, it involves one person raping another and i think it should not be tolerated by society. It isn't the persons feelings that are the problem, it is the fact the the other person cannot choose or is not strong enough to defend themselves or developed enough to understand what is going on.

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  43. Yes homosexuality is completely normal, great article!

    People argue that it isn't normal because people of the same sex can't reproduce. But who said reproduction is necessary? Who wrote the non-existing 'Rules of Life'? Since there is the majority of the heterosexual population being fine with reproduction, I don't think everyone needs to make babies. It doesn't make you abnormal for not having children, otherwise people who can't have or simply don't want children are abnormal too.

    Also, I am pansexual. Which means I am basically gender-blind, since I find all attractive humans attractive I can fall in love with anyone. Its as simple as that. There are many sexualities which most people don't know about, and its all natural because we're naturally like this. Love is love, attraction is attraction. The End.

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  44. great article with intellectual debate.... i m happy to see there are lot of ppl who think rationally... there is no such thing like universal truth , absolute morality. every society is bound to undergrow changes. we should have optimistic attitude towards changes.....

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  45. Blogger Person #14.6

    I agree with Shannon.

    As for those in love with the same gender: what issue are you fighting? It is not wrong to love another of the same gender. Love can exist without sexual acts or desires. Those who deny this have no idea what they are missing. My point: friendship in this subject is highly underestimated. I'm willing to say that my love for several of my friends can outweigh the pleasures of homosexuality a million times over. Homosexual persons may also experience this relationship, even with the one who they are engaging in homosexual activities. But know this: There is a fine line between love and physical pleasures, including the smallest of pleasures. Like Shannon said: The bible tells us it is forbidden. Those who deny it's law may live on their own choices, but those who choose to put there faith in this will not be denied grace. And anyone who has given their life to Christ can attest the miracles in their lives.

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  46. What's going on here? Pages of comments about a relatively simple matter.
    1) I flatter myself that I am a Christian. The name is the clue: CHRISTian.
    Hence the OLD Testament has long been irrelevant and is to be considered as the musings and history of the Jewish people(who were often pretty unpleasant), and who set things out as best they could but Jehova is/was not Christ.
    The Jews had their mores and for good reasons no doubt, but that was in a different world.

    Jesus is reported as saying next to nothing about sex, and definitely nothing about homosex.
    So, IF you're Christian, please remember
    (A) love the Lord thy God with all thy heart (and whatever God is, it's surely not an old beared man on a cloud),
    (B) love thy neighbour as thyself.
    On these two things hang ALL the laws and the prophets...and those 2 alone are quite hard enough to follow!
    There is NO instruction about how to conduct your sex life.
    2) Gay men are not effeminate (as above posting)per se. Some submissive types may be, as may be some heterosexuals.
    Sparta was probably the most militaristic society ever seen. Their men were very successful and much feared warriors of honour and bravery.
    The Spartan army actively encouraged homosexuality in particular circumstances. On equal terms you'd think twice about accusing a Spartan warrior of effeminacy.

    Homosexuality was commonplace in Roman times, and they were pretty successful too!

    3) It's beyond dispute that homosexuality is widespread, though usually relatively not common, in the natural world. Bonobo Apes (closeish to humans) are universally bisexual, AND use frequent sexual contact as an apparant social bonding device.

    4) I personally KNOW about sexuality.
    I am male.
    I am an old man now.
    Listen!

    I have had the good fortune to have had not much trouble making sexual liasons with females. So easy has it been that I would spend my time only with the sort of girls that could stop traffic (yes, I'm that shallow), YET, I also have homosexual liasons. How can this be?
    The 2 experiences appeal to 2 totally different character facets.
    In the case of homosexual liasons, there is a completely DIFFERENT sort of excitment and some of it is about the profound bonding between male comrades/warriors. This can be serious stuff and there is not that unspoken implied obligation as there so often is with heterosexual liasons.

    I find the homosexual coupling to be every bit as "natural" (but different)as the hetereosexual. It comes easily to and with whom you want to give and receive pleasure...in this you have a special bond with your buddy.

    So, my case is that the argument above is sterile.

    EVERY man likes to , indeed must, sometimes have his genitals stimulated.
    He can do this in a wonderful complementary way with females, or in a "something understood" way with males...as the opportunity or inclination arises.
    Forget the indoctrination of societies of old.

    Homosexuality can be a delight; comes very easily; and if you just permit youself, you'll find it is completely "natural". There will be no regrets.

    What's wrong in that?



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  47. the bible said not to judge anyone and it also said that thinking about doing something and doing something are one in the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  48. Homosexuality is un-natural and there is no way we can guarantee continuation of future generations if men start bonking men.
    Beside this there are many medical risks and sicknesses that are related to homosexuality.
    Below are some. Don't say i did not warn you!!!!

    Gay Bowel Syndrome (GBS):[32]
    The Journal of the American Medical Association refers to GBS problems such as proctitis, proctocolitis, and enteritis as "sexually transmitted gastrointestinal syndromes."[33] Many of the bacterial and protozoa pathogens that cause gbs are found in feces and transmitted to the digestive system: According to the pro-homosexual text Anal Pleasure and Health, "[s]exual activities provide many opportunities for tiny amounts of contaminated feces to find their way into the mouth of a sexual partner . . . The most direct route is oral-anal contact."[34]

    · Proctitis and Proctocolitis are inflammations of the rectum and colon that cause pain, bloody rectal discharge and rectal spasms. Proctitis is associated with STDs such as gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and syphilis that are widespread among homosexuals.[35] The Sexually Transmitted Disease Information Center of the Journal of the American Medical Association reports that "[p]roctitis occurs predominantly among persons who participate in anal intercourse."

    · Enteritis is inflammation of the small intestine. According to the Sexually Transmitted Disease Information Center of the Journal of the American Medical Association, "enteritis occurs among those whose sexual practices include oral-fecal contact."[36] Enteritis can cause abdominal pain, severe cramping, intense diarrhea, fever, malabsorption of nutrients, weight loss.[37] According to a report in The Health Implications of Homosexuality by the Medical Institute for Sexual Health, some pathogens associated with enteritis and proctocolitis [see below] "appear only to be sexually transmitted among men who have sex with men."[38

    Anal Cancer:

    Homosexuals are at increased risk for this rare type of cancer, which is potentially fatal if the anal-rectal tumors metastasize to other bodily organs.

    · Dr. Joel Palefsky, a leading expert in the field of anal cancer, reports that while the incidence of anal cancer in the United States is only 0.9/100,000, that number soars to 35/100,000 for homosexuals. That rate doubles again for those who are HIV positive, which, according to Dr. Palefsky, is "roughly ten times higher than the current rate of cervical cancer."[49]

    · At the Fourth International AIDS Malignancy Conference at the National Institutes of Health in May, 2000, Dr. Andrew Grulich announced that the incidence of anal cancer among homosexuals with HIV "was raised 37-fold compared with the general population."[50]

    Human Papillomavirus (HPV). HPV is a collection of more than seventy types of viruses that can cause warts, or papillomas, on various parts of the body. More than twenty types of HPV are incurable STDs that can infect the genital tract of both men and women. Most HPV infections are subclinical or asymptomatic, with only one in a hundred people experiencing genital warts.

    · HPV is "almost universal" among homosexuals. According to the homosexual newspaper The Washington Blade: "A San Francisco study of Gay and bisexual men revealed that HPV infection was almost universal among HIV-positive men, and that 60 percent of HIV-negative men carried HPV."[17]

    For those who think it is natural, i would doubt that you would like it when you have to start wearing diapers because by then it would be too late.

    If you are attracted to another man, exercise restraint and pray about it and God will surely deliver you from this problem. He is the same God who would hate to see you in agony when your rectal muscles can no longer hold the feacal matter or worse still the intestines from popping out. He cares




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  49. If the prevalence of homosexuality in animals is an argument to accept it among human beings then there are many other animal behaviors that we should accept as normal and natural, for starters the lion kills or drives away the lions from other pride, kills the young ones in there and forces the lionesses into his pride and force copulates with them.

    Considering that this is acceptable behavior among the animals should we also legalize killing the husband and kids of a woman we fancy and then take over her and rape her ?

    People may have homosexual urges but there are some people who have an urge to murder or to steal or to do all sort of stupid thins so should we just keep accepting their urges as normal one after the other ?

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    Replies
    1. Samix, there is a very important distinction between homosexuality and murder (or any other natural but socially undesirable act) which you miss - consent. Consensual Homosexuality does not harm anyone; murder or rape does, they are not consensual.

      Why should anyone have the power to decide that two consenting adults cannot indulge in any non-harmful act?

      Delete
  50. Homosexuality is UN-natural and there is no way we can guarantee continuation of future generations if men start bonking men.
    Beside this there are many medical risks and sicknesses that are related to homosexuality.
    Below are some. Don't say i did not warn you!!!!

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  51. OK!!!! People! Why does it matter at all to anyone??? I am gay. I don't act like I am and I'm not attracted to men who act feminine. It's like this.... Just because a 2000 year old book says anything DOES NOT MEAN IT IS TRUE, OR THE WORD OF god! It amazes me how much people believe in a book and have never met the people who wrote it or translated it. You are going on a 2000 year old book and doing it with "blind faith". You may have been scared into believing what it says and may even actually believe it but only cause you have told yourself or by others repeatedly that it is true and it is the word of god. Now is the Bible bad? No! It does contain good "stories" and some but not all of what it says can be used to better ones own life and it does teach good moral values...... for someone living 2000 years ago! I just don't see how people say "Well the Bible says this or that." So what!? I could say some other 2000 year old book with other good moral values and ways to live life and stories in it and say "Well this book says this." and you would look at me like I was stupid! That's what YOU look like when you say that. Christianity is one of the most if not the most recent religion and many other religions have book that predate the Bible. So what makes that book wrong? They have just as much evidence to prove their book as you do yours.

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  52. Shoot them on their arse.... the only solution..
    how could u say a homosexual couple is not harmful for the society or environment , did not you hear about the term ecological balance?
    We are not animal, We are human....

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