It’s unfortunate that India could not become a home to an artist that was born and raised in India. MF Husain who was haunted by Hindu zealots for many years now has eventually taken up Qatar nationality giving up Indian citizenship. This is a major setback to Indian democracy. This shows that we are still a long way from becoming a mature democracy.
Related Topics: Nude paintings, Nude God, Judgment, Talibanization of India Slowed Down, Nudes and Mothers.
This is how MF Husain depicted Sita
Hindu Nude Gods
India has a long standing tradition of depicting their gods in nude. Sanskrit texts extol romantic and erotic settings between various gods and goddesses. Goddess Laxmi’s breasts are discussed in explicit details, and sringara is an inherent part of the Indian mythology. Indian temples are galore with various gods and goddesses in erotic postures and in some temples, the depictions are downright pornographic where more than one multiple partners are making love.
Goddess Saraswati Seminude
Warangal, Bhadrakali Temple
Shiva Uma
Nude Goddess from 10th Century AD
Erect Shiva Linga
Goddess Lajja Gowri
Chandela Temple
Contemporary Artist’s Hindu Goddess
Shiva’s Female Form
Nude deity
Krishna being playful
Nude Ravana
Rati Manmatha
@Sujai
ReplyDeleteSpeaking on every single topic on hindutva doesn't mean your side of the story is the right side. Im an atheist myself and have no interest in this mf hussain drama but i know an act of "ridicule" when i see one. I don't have any problem with nude portraits, in fact im proud of our history before the muslim rapists invaded our country. We were already something which the western nations today pursue to be.
Fact is, mf hussain started painting nude portraits to ridicule which he ha mentioned himself. He did paint hitler in nude and slowly moved on to hindu gods and goddess.
If you look at the history books in the pakistani curriculum depicting hindus and muslims together, the hindu will be represented in dark black and the muslim will be the taller, white gentlemen. The same pattern can be found in the hanuman painting where sita is painted dark black.
Colour or nudity is not the issue. The fact that he can ridicule under the mask of artistic freedom is what angers hindus and atheists like me.
I think you better redefine your stand on this else you will be considered another one of those elite whack jobs who protest without any rule or reason.
You already have quite a few posts on this blog which could very well fit into a conspiracy nuts cook book.
Half truths are the worst form of lies.
Anuj,
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he can ridicule under the mask of artistic freedom is what angers hindus and atheists like me.
MFH has every right to ridicule (he has free speech rights) and you have every right to feel angry.
There is a controversy on the novel Draupadi right now. What do you say about that?
If muslims have the right to use free speech, so do hindus. Nobody is stopping hindu artists from painting mohammed having sex with children. Indian govt should have no issues with that. If it does, you gotta sue the Govt for its double-standards.
If you have any issues, that should be with Govt of India. When it comes to stuff offending one community, it is quick to ban; while it completely ignores the sensitivity of the other community and in fact rewards people. Did you know that Draupadi got an award? You got issues with Govt of India. Take it up with them. Not the blog owner.
If we stop banning stuff coz ppl feel offended, we'll end up banning everything. I find AP govts textbooks most disgusting. What could be more worse than falsifying history?
@Sujai,
ReplyDeleteArt is usually ahead of time and throughout history it always had problem with politics.
MF Husain has his own sensibilities and requirements, and it is perfectly fine if he wishes to express his ideas thru paintings.
As regards ancient Hindu paintings & sculptures they were perhaps fine at that point of time. We can't go on interpreting what it meant. I can't convince you and neither can you convince us about how they need to be interpreted. We can agree to disagree. What Hindus are asking is to spare Hindu Goddesses and Gods, and other Hindu symbols and Mother India. He can go ahead with whatever else he wishes to do. This is perfectly reasonable demand.
However I admit that use of force and legal harassment is deplorable.
But again, only in India do we have a a bogus form of secularism wherein secular invariably translates into anti-Hindu. What have you to say about the recent case of an article attributed to Taslima Nasreen in Kannada daily caused widespread protests.
We Hindus have problems with some selective criticism. Again, all we ask MF Husain is to refrain from touching some Hindu idols. About the rest, since most of us are not artists, we won't care whatever he does.
You may be an artist yourself, however you must understand that commoners like me don't have understanding of what such paintings mean symbolically.
MF Husain's decision is personal & NDTV interview he says that he harbours no ill will against anybody. I appreciate that. We regret that an artist of his standing has brought matters to such a conclusion.
I hope that though you're an atheist yourself, you have no problem with our sentiments as long as they are reasonable.
Irritation Protests ('The Hindu')
@Anuj:
ReplyDeleteSpeaking on every single topic on hindutva doesn't mean your side of the story is the right side.
I never contested that I am on the right side. This is my side – I don’t know whether it is right or wrong in the universal sense. I do make a case as to why my side is justified. You are free to oppose it.
Im an atheist myself and have no interest in this mf hussain drama but i know an act of "ridicule" when i see one.
I do not believe that MF Husain’s paintings were done to ‘ridicule’ anyone. I don’t see a single painting of MF Husain that was done to ridicule anyone. At the most I seem him as a very conservative artist, sticking to the cultural ethos and not deviating from it.
Fact is, mf hussain started painting nude portraits to ridicule which he ha mentioned himself.
I don’t think an artist paints anyone in nude because he wants to ridicule them. Nudity is just an expression, and one of the most common expressions in art. Ridicule is usually not attributed to nudity in art – at least that’s the common understanding. Go to any European museum and you will see nudity everywhere and none of it was done to ‘ridicule’ anyone. The same is true of Indian temples. None of those nudes are created to ridicule anyone. Nudity as a medium of ridicule is product of your conservative upbringing.
If you look at the history books in the pakistani curriculum depicting hindus and muslims together, the hindu will be represented in dark black and the muslim will be the taller, white gentlemen. The same pattern can be found in the hanuman painting where sita is painted dark black.
I find that argument far-fetched. In one painting, Sita is dark, in another she is fair.
The fact that he can ridicule under the mask of artistic freedom is what angers hindus and atheists like me.
None of his ideas seem to be based in religious hatred or ridicule. Most of his detractors seem to be prejudiced against him because of his religious background. He seems to celebrate India and Indianness in his own quirky and artistic way.
I think you better redefine your stand on this else you will be considered another one of those elite whack jobs who protest without any rule or reason.
I believe that I protest only when I am thoroughly convinced about the reasons. I am an ardent supporter of Telangana for over twenty years now. Many of those who appear on this blog supporting Telangana are neo-converts. I provide the reasons why I support separate Telangana. You have every right to support or oppose it.
Your statements talking about Muslims in the negative tone just because they happen to be Muslims will not elicit respect from me. You are free to oppose my views but it would be nice if you provide reasons, and make a strong case for it instead of opposing it because of your prejudices.
While I am one of the ardent supporters of Telangana now, I do maintain that I will be the harshest critic of Telangana once it is formed.
@Madhav.
ReplyDeleteAs regards ancient Hindu paintings & sculptures they were perhaps fine at that point of time.
There is one picture on this post, titled ‘Warangal, Bhadrakali Temple’. I took that picture two years ago. That was constructed only in the last five years. It was not there before that. That clearly shows that we are continuing to depict our gods in nude even in the present times.
What Hindus are asking is to spare Hindu Goddesses and Gods, and other Hindu symbols and Mother India.
The question is, ‘why should they be spared now when they were never spared in our entire history?’
The second question is, ‘spared from what? from celebration and deification? What if celebration of a certain mythology means depicting the characters in nudity?’
But again, only in India do we have a a bogus form of secularism wherein secular invariably translates into anti-Hindu.
I have many posts on this topic. I believe that India acts more like a Hindu country than a secular country. I don’t think Indian secularism is anti-Hindu. In fact, it is very much Hindu. For example, today, in the news, the budget in Karnataka will be presented only after Rahu Kaalam. India is Hindu is many ways.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bangalore/BSYs-budget-only-after-rahu-kaalam/articleshow/5644976.cms
What have you to say about the recent case of an article attributed to Taslima Nasreen in Kannada daily caused widespread protests.
Sheer stupidity. It was discovered that Taslima did not even write it. The madness is on both sides, that does not mean one is better than the other.
We Hindus have problems with some selective criticism.
I have written about suppression of freedoms on this blog – in which I criticized Muslims when they obstructed Taslima in Hyderabad. There is no selective criticism.
Again, all we ask MF Husain is to refrain from touching some Hindu idols.
The question is very simple. Who are we to ask anyone? If there are thousands of gods in this country which are nude, many of the artisans being Muslims, why stop only one artist? For what, for continuing the tradition?
You may be an artist yourself, however you must understand that commoners like me don't have understanding of what such paintings mean symbolically.
Art was never meant to be understood. Nobody is forcing anyone to see his paintings. You have every right not to see it.
I hope that though you're an atheist yourself, you have no problem with our sentiments as long as they are reasonable.
I have no problem with sentiments as long as they do not infringe on other people’s right for expression and freedom and other people’s right to lead to dignity.
@Idler
ReplyDeleteMFH has every right to ridicule (he has free speech rights) and you have every right to feel angry
No, your wrong. Article 19(2) says free speech is allowed as long as it doesn't offend anybody.
If muslims have the right to use free speech, so do hindus.
Your right
Nobody is stopping hindu artists from painting mohammed having sex with children.
Wrong. Article 19 (2) stops them from doing such a thing.
Indian govt should have no issues with that.
Yes, it does. Read the "restrictions" part on this website...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_India
If it does, you gotta sue the Govt for its double-standards.
Article 19(2) itself is formulated on double standards. You obviously have no interest in reading indian laws or you you have read them.
Your opinions are half-baked, no offense. I won't reply to you again until you go do some research on your own. Im not here to give you ready made answers.
@Anuj:
ReplyDeleteNo, your wrong. Article 19(2) says free speech is allowed as long as it doesn't offend anybody.
Free speech always offends someone. That is the whole idea of free speech. When I talk about Telangana, it offends Andhras. ‘getting offended’ is subjective. You can read more about this on two posts on this blog. Search for ‘Larry Flynt’.
@Sujai
ReplyDeleteThis is my side – I don’t know whether it is right or wrong in the universal sense.
Then clearly your opinions lack ethics, now don't it?
I do not believe that MF Husain’s paintings were done to ‘ridicule’ anyone.
Then why are even the most liberal hindus coming out against mf hussain? Though liberals and i do not think hussain should have been hounded out of this country. But our disagreement wrt his paintings stand. Maybe you should distinguish whether you disagree with his paintings or the fact that he was driven to leave the country.
I don’t think an artist paints anyone in nude because he wants to ridicule them.
This is what i was talking about half truths. He painted hitler in nude and when they asked him why he did that, he's reply was that he wanted to ridicule him in his own way. Google for that on the internet. Even the liberals accuse him of double standards because he never proceeded to paint jesus or mohammed in the nude. That my friend, is called double standards.
Nudity is just an expression, and one of the most common expressions in art.
Im not denying it and this is not the part in which we are in disagreement.
Nudity as a medium of ridicule is product of your conservative upbringing.
Do not put words in my mouth. I never said i was against nudity. It is part of my culture. Why should i be against it?
I find that argument far-fetched. In one painting, Sita is dark, in another she is fair.
You have the balls to talk about the underbelly of hindus, like you did about the telugus and the dowry situation but you cannot talk about the inferior / superior syndrome prevalent among the muslims in the indian subcontinent. Why do you adopt such double standards? Is is racist or intolerant to point some one else's underbelly?
Most of his detractors seem to be prejudiced against him because of his religious background.
That's a very strong claim, sujai. I hope you back that up with a source. You are under the false notion that only the so called "talibanized" hindus disagree with this man. But if you do believe that then im afraid we can no longer continue this debate.
Your statements talking about Muslims in the negative tone just because they happen to be Muslims will not elicit respect from me.
This is something which we will be at loggerheads till death. Let me tell you, i used to be a man of gandhi but now im a man of action. I no longer believe in pacifism. I used to tolerate injustices but i cannot any more. Hindu's believe that god resides in every animal and reptile. I think that's ridiculous and i also believe that such a belief system emerged out of a philosophy of live and let live.
You can talk about underbellys but you can only come so close. I, on the other hand like to go all out and that is what makes you and i different. My past religion, hinduism is no longer dear to be but i can never escape it even if i try.
I have left it all buy you still hold on to it. I can say the things which you find disturbing or "intolerant" or "non-secular" or the words you used - "negative tone" or "elicit respect". They are just words to me which do not penetrate because what is true is true and will remain true regardless of your semantic warfare.
I can say hinduism is stupid but you can't. I can say that mohammad was a pedophile but you can't. I can say that he was a war monger-er and a rapist who encouraged keeping slaves but you can't.
I think you know exactly what i mean. Come out of it and be the witness and not the party of the crime.
Free speech always offends someone. That is the whole idea of free speech.
ReplyDelete...And that is why our so called liberal discussions on the thousands of evils do not matter because it can never be heard in the court room because article 19 (2) won't let you say those things in front of the judge.
So are you enlightened now to proceed to change the first thing which needs to be changed? Do we proceed to form a rap group to spew out truths to the indian masses?
Free speech?
ReplyDeleteSujai, go though this forum. It will help you a lot.
http://broadbandforum.in/politics/28907-article-19-2-freedom-speech/
@Anuj
ReplyDeleteThen clearly your opinions lack ethics, now don't it?
I don’t talk too much about morals and ethics because they are subjective. Whether my opinions lack ethics is up to the reader to interpret.
Then why are even the most liberal hindus coming out against mf hussain?
I don’t know what liberal Hindu means. Because I never understood what liberal Muslim means either.
Maybe you should distinguish whether you disagree with his paintings or the fact that he was driven to leave the country.
I don’t find Husain’s paintings offensive. I am supporting his artistic freedom to paint nude gods on this forum. I disagree with the way he was forced to leave the country.
He painted hitler in nude and when they asked him why he did that, he's reply was that he wanted to ridicule him in his own way.
Please provide the link where Husain says he painted Hitler in nude because he wanted to ridicule him. I have not found any site which directly attributes such a statement to Husain. Yes, Husain may hate Hitler and yes, he has depicted him nude. But that does not mean it follows – Husain depicted Hitler in nude because he hates him.
Even the liberals accuse him of double standards because he never proceeded to paint jesus or mohammed in the nude.
As I said earlier, Husain is still conservative in the sense that he sticks to the cultural ethos. There is not a very big practice of depicting Jesus in nude or depicting Mohammed in any form. But there is a very big cultural heritage of depicting Hindus gods in nude. Depicting Hindu gods in nude has never been considered offensive.
For many ages, Muslim artisans were used in temples where nude Hindu gods were depicted. For a Muslim who was raised as an artist, it comes natural to depict the Hindu gods in nude.
@Anuj:
ReplyDeleteYou have to read Article 19 (2) in context of the legal rulings and precedents.
The interpretation of fundamental rights evolves; and the recent rulings will set that interpretation.
Justice Kaul's lengthy judgment on MF Husain clearly establishes the current interpretation. He absolved MF Husain of alleged crimes thereby providing the interpretation to Article 19 (2).
sujai:
ReplyDelete@ "Sheer stupidity. It was discovered that Taslima did not even write it"
no. the article in the kannada newspaper is an extraction from her book. she has cleverly escaped the controversy saying "i have never written article for any kannada paper in my entire life". which is true. see the political correctness of the statement.
@Sujai
ReplyDeleteWhat are your opinions on free speech? Do you set any limits or conditions? What you do think about hate speeches?
Since you have mentioned you like eminem in your profile, what do you think about him using the guise of a character named "slim shady" who rants homophobe lyrics and makes several misogynist references?
I know liberals who stand for absolute free speech, some liberals with conditions and some liberals who have just reverted to a *conditioned* stand from there long absolute free speech stand.
Where do you stand?
@sujai
ReplyDeleteSheer stupidity. It was discovered that Taslima did not even write it. The madness is on both sides, that does not mean one is better than the other.
The article was written in 97 in outlook express. The kannada news paper had only re-printed it from that magazine.
The original article can be found here. Download it before the website takes it down.
http://taslimanasrin.com/OPINION.pdf
@Sujai
ReplyDeleteI believe that India acts more like a Hindu country than a secular country.
India is not a hindu nation nor do it's citizens practice hinduism. Hardly 5% of the hindu population has read the bhagvat gita.
Hinduism as we know today is not more than 150 years old. The british simply clubbed few of ideologies together and referred as hinduism. As you said, caste is an Indic phenomenon, just like Dharma and border-less rashtra. A nation-state with inviolable borders is a european construct. Allegiance towards such geographical entity was called Nationalism. Subsequently, Shivaji, Vivekananda, Savarkar, Bipinchandra Pal, Lokmanya Tilak et al were called as "Hindu-Nationalists".
Both the terms in this phrase "Hindu-Nationalism" are alien to pre-islamic world-view of Indians.
There are forces which wish to return to this pre-islamic world-view where
1. everybody in this region known as "Bhaarat" are referred to as Hindus by outsiders and Bhaaratiya by insiders.
2. everybody has a dharma to follow. This dharma is basis of individual-society-rashtra's decisions regarding Artha and Kaama (Pursuit of material wealth, fame, power and fulfilment of desires).
3. This dharma is given utmost importance by everybody irrespective of their personal pursuits of Moksha (spiritual paths of achieving salvation).
The segregation of spiritual pursuits from Duty and sense of Justice (dharma) is what is advocated by everyone who is tagged as "Hindu-Nationalist" from everybody in this nation.
To oppose this, there are alien ideologies, which believe in concepts like "religion", "Infidel" and in principle deny the segregation of polity and spirituality (Deen and Daulat).
What exacerbates the matter furthermore, is that the proponents of religion of one god in category two, are global players, where as proponents of category one are local players. By this I mean, just like communism, there are no borders in Islam. Whereas, the idea of "utopia" for a "hindu-nationalist" does not run beyond the realms of Indian subcontinent. A person tagged as "Hindu-Nationalist" asks for few basic things, which people from category two cannot give (theoretically).
The irony is that, most of the Indics or "Hindus", themselves have forgotten about the idea of Dharma. They too have started equating Dharma as synonym to religion and rashtra as synonym to nation-state. hence all the confusion.
Please look at it from this point of view. The problem is not Abrahmic spiritual pursuits. The problem is refusal of Abrahmics to give higher precedence to Dharma and keep spiritual pursuits purely personal and non-proselytizing.
The things like "Caste" is accumulated excreta, which was once a useful organ, now a decaying waste. And Indic component of subcontinental popualation is slowly getting rid of it. There are many such problems which form a part of this accumulated waste which is worth getting rid of. But an entity which is now a waste and once a useful, is a part of a picture, not whole picture in itself. Things which should go, should go. and they will. However there is a process of cleaning which ensures that only waste is gone, not the essentials. That essential here is "Dharma's understanding amongst mango-abduls of India". This is "Indic-ness". This is what a "Hindu-nationalist" wants from all mango-abduls of subcontinent.
from here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=829922#p829922
This asshole cant tolarate his accent used for comedy scenes in Movies but supports when people from other religion redicules Hindu gods! Why did Qatar govt offered him Citizen ship? is that because he is famouse Artist or An artist from Muslim Community? Why did sharukh khan so keen about Pak players? is that because they are good players or they are fellow muslims? without people like Modi, Thakrey, Thogadia, yedyurappa etc Hinduism will evaporate very soon!
ReplyDeleteWhat did he draw after all? the pics you posted looks like some comics drawn by 10 year old....he just an artist over hyped! he is no Vincent vangaugh, John Constable, August renoir, Da vinci not even worth some local Artists...no regrets if he doesnt represent India!
@Anuj,
ReplyDeleteWhen we say that India is a democratic and secular nation,we must also respect and uphold what it stands for.
A lot of Indians like Vishwanathan Anand,MFH,Pachauri and so many others leave our country for reasons that need no introduction.
Why is questioning the existing norms so wrong in our country?
We glorify the achievements of international artists,but cannot tolerate even a whimper from our own.
How are Dan Brown,s or Taslima,s
questioning in their books different from MFH,S paintings or for that matter films of Kalpana Lajmi and Mira Nair,s.
They all question,just differently.
The fact is in India a woman,s depiction in books,movies,paintings or otherwise is given so much importance that we feel compelled to decide for all women ,whether they want you to or not.
We award Tulsi and Parvathi,s but ridicule the Arundhathi,s and Taslima,s with taunts and sarcasm.
We drive them away if they question us.
How dare they even make a sound?
If they do,then they are either fanatics or Islamists.
This discussion is not about art or artists,it is about WOMEN and their representation.
It is about our right to question.
Who gives a Muthalik the right to behave the way he did in real life?
And,
Why so much fuss about only paintings? when one could not even
stop or punish a guity on camera live crime?????
I am with Anju in this context. I too heard that Husain said he want to humiliate Hitler so he pictured him nude(as per Sujai he didn't find any direct article to confirm him).
ReplyDeleteAny way, I would agree with freedom of artist for Husain if he did the same thing with any other religion gods, till now I didn't saw a nude art from him where he pictured any other religion people/gods in nude. Infact in one of his picture one muslim king fully dressed and a hindu bramhan stands infront of him naked' that shows how he feels about Hindu. He should have stoped such paintings after few protested instead he continued.
If he can draw a naked muslim, I would say he is a great artist, but now he is disgusting.
@l dyapa
ReplyDeleteA lot of Indians like Vishwanathan Anand,MFH,Pachauri and so many others leave our country for reasons that need no introduction.
You are right and i cannot argue with that. The strength of india, it's culture and hinduism lies in it's ability to tolerate hostility. Muslims entered india will the sole reason to convert the stock of the region to hinduism. In the process they managed to slaughter 8 crore hindus and buddhists but they never could pacify the land. They lost and india is still pre-dominantly hindu.
Though, the christians have finally found a way. The key to india is by provoking it to reveal it's dark side. Ram sene and VHP and similar wacko's are all a product of this provocation. The caste system exists within the hindus, the muslims and the christians. Then why are they converting? Think about it. There chipping away from inside us.
Correcting mistakes in the previous post
ReplyDelete***You are right and i cannot argue with that. The strength of india, it's culture and hinduism lies in it's ability to tolerate hostility. Muslims invaded india will the sole purpose to convert the stock of the region to islam. In the process they managed to slaughter 8 crore hindus and buddhists but they never could pacify the land. They lost and india is still pre-dominantly hindu.
@l dyapa
ReplyDeleteWhy is questioning the existing norms so wrong in our country?
The root cause of the problem lies in article 19 (2) which is a combination of contradictory semantics.
How are Dan Brown,s or Taslima,s
questioning in their books different from MFH,S paintings or for that matter films of Kalpana Lajmi and Mira Nair,s.
*Dan brown questioned the celestial nature of jesus
*Tasmila questioned the diktats of quran
*Kalpana lajmi is a nobody
*Mira nair is not worthy to discuss
The first two are liberals and are basically moving up the ladder to question the existence of god. What did mf hussain question? The fact that you can compare hussain to taslima or brown is beyond me.
They all question,just differently.
What does mf hussain question? That hindu fundoo's get violent when he instigates them? Does he question article 19 (2)? I don't think so. He provokes and he cries. He is no different that the hindu fundoo's he's running from.
but ridicule the Arundhathi,s and Taslima,s with taunts and sarcasm.
The tag that a person is a "social activist" doesn't make him right. Arundhati roy is one of those elite wackos who question everything without any rule or reason. People like her ruin the name of activists. She makes it difficult for a genuine person to ever raise an issue. I will only ask you to not stray away into the arms of conspiracy wackos.
Sujai K,
ReplyDeleteI would like to clear you on this. There is a moral: "Before opposing anything, the one should know that topic in depth."
You have done a good search in collecting the old photos and paintings. If you could have spent the same time on the reading and understanding HINDU philosophy, hope you could have known what you are doing. The idols, paintings of gods and goddesses are structured or painted by great devotees, not by atheists. If you see the inner meaning in that with your wisdom eye, you can find a good moral to be followed in your life. Nudity will create a sensation for sex, which should be used only for reproduction (and not for joy). In HINDU philosophy, one should marry and do the "GARBHA DAANAM" for retaining this world, means that man shouldn't have any interest in sex and should perform as one sacrifices his belongings.
In Bhavadgita, Lord krishna said:
brahmany adhaya karmani
sangam tyaktva karoti yah
lipyate na sa papena
padma-patram ivambhasa
Means, He who acts without attachment, dedicating his actions to the Supreme Lord is untouched by sin, like a lotus leaf untouched by water
Likewise the great devotees didn't saw the bad meaning in the paintings and created those only to enlighten the people in some aspects.
I don't want to comment about M F Hussian's paintings, since I don't know with what intention he painted those.
I request all atheists to go though the Hindu or Christian or Muslim philosophy and declare that you are ATHEIST. If you write anything about GOD without doing the same, it will merely be considered as foolishness or ignorance.
I pray god that your Your Curtain of Ignorance Should Be Lifted.
BY THE WAY I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST YOU TO WRITE SOME USEFUL ARTICLES THAT HELPS OTHERS INSTEAD OF PUTTING YOUR OPINIONS ON DIFFERENT THINGS.
ONE WHO CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE HIS PHILOSOPHY SEARCHES FOR OTHER PHILOSOPHY
ReplyDeleteThis is the fact, either he may be hindu or muslim or christian.
This is an article on ar antulay who cited conspiracy theories when karkare got killed in the mumbai attacks.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone here should read it in it's entirety at least once. You do not have to be different. You do not have to question the obvious. You do not need to make unique opinions. There are no awards to be won. Winning an argument does not make it right. Ethics matter. Criticisms are important. They make way for change. Conspiracy theories are not. By referring CT wacko's or by blowing things out of proportion, you only end up denigrating yourself.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/viewsvirsanghvi/The-Antulay-conspiracy/Article1-359538.aspx
SUJAI K,
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, I want to convey you after reading your blogs:
I think you should read the history well.
You have compared the Indian
Independence struggle with Telangana movements and Andhras with Britishers.
Do you know how Britishers treated Indians? Hope you read Jalianwllah Bhag incident, hope you know about the closed jails in Andaman, hope you know arrests of great leaders, hope you know about the rules imposed in Indians by Britishers and how they damaged the Indian culture.
Please read some books on Indian Independence struggle if you don't know.
Please don't write just to stoke tension in mind of the reader of your blog.
Also, you have declared Dr. Jaya Prakash Narayan as an Educated fool. I am felt very bad after reading that and it made me to think why I opened this blog. What do you know about JP? Do you know he is an MBBS doctor and an IAS officer? After watching the politicians and their works closely, he gave all his posts and started a party to serve the people.
//You have compared the Indian
ReplyDeleteIndependence struggle with Telangana movements and Andhras with Britishers.//
Do I smell 'Reality' here? Why you want to convert this post into Telangana-Andhra debate? We will appreciate if you write such comment in other Telangana related posts.
Hinduism today is not the same as it was! world today is not the same as when those old sculptures ware made, dont related with the works which ware made centuries ago with lot of dedication, time, hardwork etc by the hindu devotees with a work which takes hardly fifteen minutes to draw for a professional and who is no way concerned to hinduism, no respect for hinduism...look at the picture the way Sita is depicted hanging to the tail of Hanuman, it looks so ridiculed...the retard who painted that considered as a great artist! and this retarded blog owner so worried about freedom of speech...both should be shot stright in the Head.
ReplyDelete@ Anuj,
ReplyDeleteYou took my words in a wrong context.
Why consider some people right and others wrong?
How are Hindu sculptors great and a Muslim painter wrong for similar work or offenses like you called it.
Why paint it with a religious brush?
MFH,s actions I feel were only to prove and exercise his freedom of expression,if nothing else.
He defied against odds,when he was attacked,his property vandalised and his family threatened.
The old man stood against all that,and fought till the end,because he had a RIGHT to express himself.
My cousin is an artist and I have seen so many of his works not being put on display,because they were politically incorrect.
Artists are very often misunderstood as they cannot be present every where to explain their work.
MF,s work could be provocative to one and artistic to another.
To each their own...
Who forced you to watch them?
Does it mean we drive away people from their own homes????
THAT really is a sinking feeling..
when you are made and felt homeless in your own country for expressing yourself.
How would you feel if your family disowned you,just because you question them or express yourself,differently?
Would it be alright if he had done all this in the privacy of his home?
And spoke like a saint infront of everyone.
At the end of the day,India lost a talented son to its spinelessness.
WILL MISS YOU DEARLY MF...
I really feel sorry for those people who come to sujai blog and attack him verbally with thier baseless arguments,these people doesnt have any talent to write a blog,but they will stand in line to attack on someone else blogs,what kind of assholes are these people.
ReplyDeleteyou can always have an healthy debate,but by attacking someone in his own blog shows the stupidity and you mental imbalance.
people these are sujai's views or opinions,please dont interpret them as your day to day laws,if you dont like it ,dont read it,but please dont attack him verbally,infact hes more talented than most of us who are attacking him.
have your own blog to write against him.
everybody has freedom of speech.
if you have any shame left in you,stop attacking him and start writing some logics if you have any.
Anuj
ReplyDelete"The caste system exists within the hindus, the muslims and the christians. Then why are they converting? Think about it. There chipping away from inside us."
Caste system in hindus is more rigid and discrminatory.
Caste system in muslims and christians is NOT rigid.
Even if the caste system exists every in every religion. Aboridinal people of this country are moving to religions which are LESS discrminatory and not to their own system/Race.
The aboriginal people of this country did not have a system, religion when they were invaded by more organized races with system and religion in place it is a shock to these people. They could never form their own religion and system till now.
The idea of organized religion is foreign to aboriginal people of this country.
Regarding artistic Freedom ,1 question: how many will allow nudes depiction of their moms by any artist ? May be I am backward but I cant think of it.
ReplyDeleteThis is w.r.t people saying that nude depictions are part of Indian culture.
My ancestors practiced Sati, Casteism, witchcraft. I dont practice them bcoz I dont like them now.In fact I abhor them. Just bcoz my ancestors followed them or it was part of my heritage should I do the same?
Infact I learnt in school that my earliest forefathers had no clothes at all and but I may not be a worthy heir to their legacy.I prefer to be clothed except in my private moments.Will I be a model citizen of a model democracy if I accept nudity (starting from artistic depictions).
Dont I have the choice of my own concerns and sensitivity.
Parting thought...
Why hasnt MF Hussain painted any depiction of the Prophet (forget the nudes) ? Is his artistic creativity limited to Hindu deities alone? OK leave the Prophet(Peace be to him) alone.. for a change why not begin with the Ayatollahs.
And M still wondering whats the noise all about.
Why consider some people right and others wrong?
ReplyDeleteThen how do take sides?
How are Hindu sculptors great and a Muslim painter wrong for similar work or offenses like you called it.
There is no problem in nude portraits. It is the duplicity of mf hussain which is in question.
Why paint it with a religious brush?
When he paints gods and goddesses, he naturally kind of makes it religious.
He defied against odds,when he was attacked,his property vandalised and his family threatened.
MF hussain's actions cannot be called an act of "defiance" when he has clearly used "provocation". His intentions were bad, which is why he left and cried about his countrymen not being there to protect him.
The old man stood against all that,and fought till the end,because he had a RIGHT to express himself.
Your right. Article 19 (2) says that a person has a right to express himself provided *his act doesn't offend anyone*.
My cousin is an artist and I have seen so many of his works not being put on display,because they were politically incorrect.
Do you realize how much animosity there is inside this country? If the govt. were to give absolute freedom of speech, do you realize what would happen? Do you know why the indian history books are totally silent on the islamic crusade over india?
@blueshift
ReplyDeleteCaste system in hindus is more rigid and discrminatory. Caste system in muslims and christians is NOT rigid.
Clearly you do not have any christian friends who have been very open to you. Caste-ist segregation among the christians of kerala is among the worst and even worst than the one prevalent in hindus.
Aboridinal people of this country are moving to religions which are LESS discrminatory and not to their own system/Race.
Actually, the churches lure them on the hopes that there is no such things as caste system in christianity. Once they convert, the quickly find out that "caste system" is a part of indian culture. It doesn't matter if they convert to christianity or islam, they cannot escape it. The levels of segregation that you talk about are non-existent. They are the same in christianity. They fluctuate on some levels but overall, they equally tally out with there counter parts.
The aboriginal people of this country did not have a system, religion when they were invaded by more organized races with system and religion in place it is a shock to these people.
If your talking about islamic invasion then yes. Though there is no way hinduism can be called a religion. It is not organized. Hindus in karnataka are different from hindus in tamil nadu. There are no specified rules. There are only advises. As crazy as it sounds, i would rather have a man pray to a doll with six hands than to pray a "single" god. Great wars have been fought over "single" gods. A known ridiculous belief system is better than the one which is unknown.
"If your talking about islamic invasion"
ReplyDeleteNo I am talking about hindu aryan race invasion and Aryan Islam too
@blueshift
ReplyDeleteNo I am talking about hindu aryan race invasion and Aryan Islam too
Hinduism was known as sanata dharma before the others arrived. SD was not a religion. There were no do's and don'ts. I was absorbed by the indian sub-continent without any use of evangelists. It happened because it was philosophical. A good example is the concept of cow worship. The cow is not worshiped as god but as a symbol of a mother. The influence of sanata dharma is so strong that there are traces of it indian muslims and christians.
You can find traces of islamic influence on the stock of UP and bihar when the women cover there faces with there sari's.
@ Anuj
ReplyDeleteYou say that you are an athiest ,why do you care if the evangelists are converting hindus ?
Dont you know that dalits were denied temple entry till recent times ? they were told they were not worthy of having a God , but these evangelists hugged them and told them in eyes of their 'God' all people are equal , thats why millions of dalits got converted to christianity.
//The old man stood against all that,and fought till the end,because he had a RIGHT to express himself.//
ReplyDeleteNo, he is not. He misused 'Right to express himself', he is damn sure he knows that if he draw such art on any Muslim religious leades, he will be dead in days (some one will issue a fatwa and some other will implement it)
We are allowed to be naked in our bedroom, bathroom in some cases in our home, but not in public, but not infront of others, again some one may have to go naked infront of doctor, its all depends on the situation, we can not argue defending him saying 'right to express'.
In rome behave like roman, this context works till some extend. In foreign courntries we see naked beaches, non-marriagal sex etc they think it is natural but we think it is sin. Even though we are in such places we still think that is sin. As we are hindu we know what those naked status on the temple means and we never look at those in sexual way. We may have divine meaning of a naked statue. But it looks lot different when you see naked Sita on naked Hanuman tail or naked Ravan thigh.
Does any one agree the blue-films and the naked status on temple are same? The same way our ansisters view about nudity and Husan's view is lot different.
He doesn't have a answer about why he didn't use that 'right to express' right on Muslims.
And finally if some one pictures me naked on basis of 'Right to express' I will definitely kill him, and I feel Seeta maata is my family.
Throwing him out of the country is different context from what I am talking, but what ever he did is utterly wrong.
"Caste-ist segregation among the christians of kerala is among the worst"
ReplyDeleteNot across India. An aboriginal person is given a chance to feel god by Christianity or Islam...where as an aboriginal person is not having such affinity towards hinduism because he is out of their varna which means out of their aryan race.
"Actually, the churches lure them on the hopes that there is no such things as caste system in christianity."
Again caste is NOT as rigid in christianity than it is in hinduism.
In hinduism people are ganged on the basis of caste and grab and distribute economic benifits among their caste only. This does not exist in christianity.
The book of christianity starts with god made all human beings equal and in his image. Aboriginal is given a chance to atleast thing he is a human being just like the people in other castes.
The ablity to think he is a human being like other caste human is given by christianity.
Aboriginals did not have a structured religion and system in place when Aryan hindu and Aryan-Mongolian Islamic races invaded India.
There were no books or philosophy developed by aboriginals which answered their existence.
If there was a book in which aboriginal race is defined supreme and are the decendents of Aboriginal god and the society was organized then the story would be different.
I am refering to this non-existing religious books and gods of aboriginal people.
"but these evangelists hugged them and told them in eyes of their 'God' all people are equal , thats why millions of dalits got converted to christianity."
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right reality.
Unfortunately even now the elite hindus do not want to accept this.
They are finding different NON-existing reasons for this.
The idea of all humans are made same is very important to this.
Anuj,
ReplyDeleteAs a ..let me say hindu atheist do you support or not support Flemming Rose of Jyllands-Posten ????
@reality
ReplyDeleteYou say that you are an athiest ,why do you care if the evangelists are converting hindus?
Cause i don't like a community dividing itself over religion and i definitely don't want another kandhamal type incident to happen.
Dont you know that dalits were denied temple entry till recent times ?
Do you know dalit christians in kerala worship in separate churches and do not have common cemetery grounds?
but these evangelists hugged them and told them in eyes of their 'God' all people are equal , thats why millions of dalits got converted to christianity.
The evangelists lied to them for there own benefit. They presented a dream world which never existed and it still doesn't exist. The spread of christianity in remote villages of india is done with assurances of false promises. That is the hard truth you cannot swallow. It is something you know very well and it unsettles you when someone points that to you.
"Do you know dalit christians in kerala worship in separate churches and do not have common cemetery grounds?"
ReplyDeleteAt least they are not forcing aboriginals to come to their own high caste church and see Jesus only from 100 feet distance and go back. They are allowed to have their own church if they do not like they will go to their own church and be masters of their own destiny. Many of my christian friends dont go to american churches they prefer their own race churches here americans are not forcing Indian christians to come to their American church.
They have a choice but still the idea is all human beings are made equal by god.
@ Anuj
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that upper caste hindus didnt allow dalits entry into hindu temples. Now that these dalits have a choice of staying god less while staying as Hindu or get converted and get access to a new god and find the comfort that comes from the belief in God upper caste guys are getting restless.
You are talking about Kandhamal riots. They only happened because hindu fanatics got scared of changing demographics in that area and govt in charge failed in its constitutional duty of protecting its citizens.
Why are upper caste hindus so afraid of conversions ? Why dont you make the required changes in Hinduism ? Make a dalit as a Pitadipathi or a Sankaracharya . Or atleast make them pujaris.
Prove to the dalits that are equal in Hindu religion instead of threatening them with riots if they get converted.
@ Anuj
ReplyDeleteI dont know about Kerala churches but in AP churches there is absolutely no caste system. In fact 90% of all Christians in AP are dalits . Upper caste conversion is very new phenomenon.
@blueshift
ReplyDeletewhere as an aboriginal person is not having such affinity towards hinduism because he is out of their varna which means out of their aryan race.
The southerners have there own set of hindu gods they worship. That is participation for you.
Again caste is NOT as rigid in christianity than it is in hinduism.
It is!! The funny thing is that the hindus of the region openly acknowledge the practice while the christians try to keep the practice as secret as possible.
I am refering to this non-existing religious books and gods of aboriginal people.
Hinduism in it's most original form is prevalent in the south rather than the north.
"Why are upper caste hindus so afraid of conversions ? Why dont you make the required changes in Hinduism ? Make a dalit as a Pitadipathi or a Sankaracharya . Or atleast make them pujaris.
ReplyDeleteProve to the dalits that are equal in Hindu religion instead of threatening them with riots if they get converted."
exactly. Upper caste hindus are choosing choice 2 but unfortunately its a ugly and dirty one.
let me say hindu atheist do you support or not support Flemming Rose of Jyllands-Posten ????
ReplyDeleteFacts and reality should be protected and allowed to be expressed.
I think you doubt my atheist beliefs. Let me just say that hindus gods are mythological just as allah but jesus and mohammed were con men - medieval baba's fooling people for power and money.
"The southerners have there own set of hindu gods they worship. That is participation for you."
ReplyDeletereally??
Southerners you mean southern aryan hindus or the aboriginal mixed aryan races? or pure aboriginals?
which one ?
"It is!! The funny thing is that the hindus of the region openly acknowledge the practice while the christians try to keep the practice as secret as possible."
as secret as possible ....yes yes its the TOP secret .....
I think i have to agree with your last one.
@blueshift
ReplyDeleteAt least they are not forcing aboriginals to come to their own high caste church and see Jesus only from 100 feet distance and go back.
It's because the christians do not want to create a scene. They practice it in secrecy. All i wanted to say was caste-ism exists in all religions of india and that the evangelists were fooling the people. Mark my words, the concept of the *belief in one god* is very dangerous. India has not seen crusade wars because of this very reason.
They have a choice but still the idea is all human beings are made equal by god.
Philosophy is inside an indians blood. Hinduism allows one to question his own beliefs. But the idea of questioning is harmful for christians and muslims. Sooner or later, the followers of the these religions are bound to question there history and there culture. And they will all come back to there roots. That is a given.
@reality
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that upper caste hindus didnt allow dalits entry into hindu temples.
That fact is india is changing rapidly and hinduism is not a rigid one. It evolves and at the moment, it is shedding away the caste system as early as possible. Once that process completes, the christians will have to switch from an attack mode to a defensive mode. You will need to find an innovative way to sell jesus.
You are talking about Kandhamal riots. They only happened because hindu fanatics got scared of changing demographics in that area and govt in charge failed in its constitutional duty of protecting its citizens.
Kandhamal happened because of the good deeds of the evangelists. The villages themselves hounded out half the residents into the forests. You need to wonder what the amount of provocation was for the villagers to resort to this kind of behaviour. The VHPs and the bajrang dals arrived later when the swami was gunned down and it became political.
Why are upper caste hindus so afraid of conversions ? Why dont you make the required changes in Hinduism ?
There is no leader in hinduism like a pope or a maulana figure. There is no central authority. There are no diktats. Things happen when they happen.
Prove to the dalits that are equal in Hindu religion
Hindu dalits are as equal as christian dalits or muslim dalits.
@blueshift
ReplyDeletereally??
Yes, really!
Southerners you mean southern aryan hindus or the aboriginal mixed aryan races? or pure aboriginals?
I didn't know you distinguished them like that.
as secret as possible ....yes yes its the TOP secret .....
Yes, it's top secret.
This is the point in the debate where you should try not to loose it. Irritation is not an excuse.
I dont know about Kerala churches but in AP churches there is absolutely no caste system. In fact 90% of all Christians in AP are dalits.
ReplyDeleteYou may be from coastal andhra. YSR was a smart man. I didn't realize his power until he died. Do you know how many radar sat pics were taken by US to locate his helicopter crash site per hindu? 20,000. Do you know how much computing power is needed to process those pics? That a very powerful christian man with very powerful connections.
I don't think even the centre knew what power that man carried with him. The centre made a smart choice by leaving jagan reddy in the lurches. Dividing AP is a smart way to cut the christian power in size.
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteI support your views on Telangana but I differ you on this MF**Hussain.
Forget about all the theories, philosophies, religious fundas, a simple question.... What do you feel if an artist choose to paint your family member naked just because she/he is famous and well known. You can say sita is not a real person just an imagination... But I don't agree. I believe in god and I treat Sita one of my family members, as my mother. I do worship her as I do other gods. It's a belief. This stupid non-sense artist doesn't have a right to insult/hurt other's feelings.
"Irritation is not an excuse"
ReplyDeleteSo whats rational in top most secret lol
which even bharat rakshak does not want to reveal...
"It's because the christians do not want to create a scene. They practice it in secrecy."
ohh boy ....so many secrets how can you handel this....
secrets n secrets and more secrets....
@blueshift
ReplyDeletesecrets n secrets and more secrets....
What is the problem? If you do not have anything to say then don't say anything. Do not indulge in spamming if my posts irritate you.
@ Anuj
ReplyDelete//The centre made a smart choice by leaving jagan reddy in the lurches. Dividing AP is a smart way to cut the christian power in size.//
I get it now . You support splitting of AP because of you think it will cut "christian power" in size. Way to go buddy ,we need more and more people like you in this country.
@reality
ReplyDeleteI get it now . You support splitting of AP because of you think it will cut "christian power" in size.
I support telangana because it deserves to be free.
"That a very powerful christian man with very powerful connections."
ReplyDeleteHe is CM of a state he IS powerful. If US is requested for help it will help. It cannot use a 1 or 2 pentium machines to process those images.
@ Blue Shift
ReplyDeleteI have read some posts on Bharat rakshak forum. They refer muslims as mango abudullahs and christians as evalengicals . These guys like Anuj represent the extreme upper caste guys who do not even want to acknowledge that dalits were denied religion and that is the main reason for all conversions. They are all islamophobic ,christianophobic but put on the masks of 'real' secularists.
"If you do not have anything to
ReplyDeletesay then don't say anything."
At least i dont say secrets....
lol....
secrets are more dangerous. The more the secrets the more the trouble.....
If YSR is born in Telangana ....would you love to divide it because
"it will cut "christian power" in size."
Anuj.....
Some readers have asked questions that I have already addressed in my previous posts. I am just pasting the same here.
ReplyDeleteThis is a response to the questions posted on MF Husain and nude paintings. A commenter asks:
“Think if MF Husain has painted your Mother in nude. Can you still support him? If so, it’s ok. But I can't!”
Many commenters had suggested the same line of reasoning. They have asked me what I would do if someone painted my mother in nude. The whole reason why they ask such a question in this episode is the following train of thought:
“Goddess Saraswati is LIKE mother to me; my country India, called Bharat Mata, is also LIKE mother to me. Therefore, portraying Goddess Saraswati or my country in nude is like portraying my biological mother in nude. Since I do not like anyone portraying my biological mother in nude, I do not like to see anyone portraying Saraswati or Bharath Mata in nude”.
At the outset, to those who have not asked enough questions in their life OR to those who did ask these questions but did not wait long enough to listen to a reasonable answer, the above logic may sound sensible.
One could easily extend this line of thought and come up with the following situation.
A person who is drilling a bore well in his property gets raided by Indian nationalists. They beat him up, ransack his home and break up all the heavy machinery that is being used for drilling. In addition, they go to an Indian court filing a case against this man. The reasons cited for such raiding, beating him up, ransacking his house, breaking up the machinery and then filing a court case against this man are the following:
“Earth is like mother to all of us. We refer to it as Mother Earth. Here is the documentary evidence of all poems and mythologies written in our history which suggest that this Earth is our Mother and that she has come to life in many of our stories to intervene in the matters of men. And drilling a hole with this plunging equipment is equivalent to raping her. Therefore, we charge this man with the crime of raping our mother. He should be arrested and convicted on the charge of rape and inflicting injuries to our mother.”
Some of you who have been using some portions of your brain during the last many years may find the above argument a little ridiculous. If that is the case, congratulations, you still have the power to reason, you have not lost all of it to the opium called religion and the heroin called nationalism.
[Contd…]
[Continued from previous comment]
ReplyDeleteTo know more about this line of thinking, read People vs Larry Flynt [Part I, Part II] on this blog. The lawyer in that story says that it is matter of personal taste, not about law.
He puts the premise of the case as:
”The question you have before you today is whether a public figure's right to protection from emotional distress should outweigh the public interest in allowing every citizen to freely express his views.”
Painting someone nude is a matter of taste, something that should be dealt with by the person (or her kin) who has been painted nude. Lots of Hindu gods and goddesses have been depicted nude in our temples. They stand in provocative poses, much provocative than what MF Husain has depicted them. If you go to a French art museum, you will see scores of paintings in which many women are depicted nude. Every woman who has gone into those French paintings or those statues in Indian temples is a depiction of some character – real person, mythological figure, or a symbolic figure. Many of those women are mothers to someone or the other.
Goddess Parvati sitting nude on Shiva’s lap, depicted in Ellora caves, is a mother to other gods like Vinayaka and Karthikeyan. Many symbolic and real women are also mothers to someone or the other. In spite of that there are many depictions of those mothers in our literature, temples and mythologies where they frolic in nude and participate in sex, adultery, and seduction.
If we start considering every public icon, every mythological character and every symbolic figure as our mother and thus prohibit all references that can hurt sentiments of people, then every such depiction in literature, paintings, statues, and even in thinking should be shunned and stopped since it is tantamount to depicting and thinking about one’s biological mom in unacceptable ways. With that kind of reasoning, almost every work of fiction, every piece of art, every prose and poetry that has dealt with women in ways that are not appealing to some people should be discarded, opposed and removed, since they deal with a woman who is a mother to at least some people. That spells an end to individual expression as we know it.
If someone out there is saying, “we are not talking about individual’s mom here; we are talking about mom of all people, including me and you”, then you have to decide this first: Are you talking about real moms or symbolic moms? Are symbolic moms same as biological moms? If so, shall we stop all drilling into Mother Earth? If not, why the fuss to start with?
Nobody is depicting your biological mom in nude here and we are referring to symbolic moms who seem to be mom to everyone, not just you in particular. Your mom could be a matter of privacy to you and her, but a symbolic mom is a public figure. Ridiculing the symbolic mom, insulting her, depicting her in nude, deriding her, praising her or worshipping her, are matters that are all outside the purview of individuals and their privacy. It’s akin to deriding a politician, caricaturing a leader, spoofing an actor, and making a parody out of mythology. It’s not a private matter and any ridiculous proposition to link them should be rejected.
If this kind of thought process prevails and starts entering our system, we are going to end up talibanizing India in less than ten years.
Reality...
ReplyDeleteWho will prevent "Bharat rakshaks" from being bakshaks of Indian citizens?
Recently i have seen videos of Swamy Nityananda...having fun....
I dont see great Indian culture defenders or Rama sena helping protect "Indian Clulture"
I see them breaking vandalizing during valintines day to PROTECT "Indian Culture" but where are they now? or are they protecting Nityananda???
@ Blue shift
ReplyDeleteSince multiple babas (kalki, amma bhagawan, swami nityananda) were exposed in the same week , these 'senas' and 'rakshaks' will now say that it is an evangelical conspiracy to weaken hindu religion.
Sujai, kudos to you for the commentary above.
ReplyDeleteAnuj: //You may be from coastal andhra. YSR was a smart man. I didn't realize his power until he died. Do you know how many radar sat pics were taken by US to locate his helicopter crash site per hindu? 20,000. Do you know how much computing power is needed to process those pics? That a very powerful christian man with very powerful connections.//
Is this the same Anuj who talked against conspiracy theories and pasted links above??
Sujai:
ReplyDeleteWhy did NOT MF Hussain exercise 'Artistic freedom of expression' in depicting nudity in Islam? Why specifically target Hindu goddesses and Bharatmata? It does not matter what the fundamentalists say but his new country and countries around it will do more than hindu zealots if something is done in the name of freedom.
Artistic freedom has limits in a free society just like free speech and freedom to propagate religion. He needs to respect that... he has no right to offend a community just like u wud prefer not to be offended for ur language, culture etc. In America, u will surely get killed by conservative South if u offend bible, church and Jesus. So, there r limitations to freedom. His obsession is 'blasphemous' in ALL societies and religions. Let him respect the feelings of others and APOLOGIZE. This does not justify the violence directed at him but all he had to do was apologize for offending a section of community and stop from further nude pics of hindu goddesses or ANY gods/symbols that offend sections of Indian community. He has other means of artistic expression like other artists have.
Sujai:
ReplyDeleteCan/should a Andhra poet or artist get away with his art offending telangana culture and language, using his freedom of expression? I am sure u will go berserk when the same 'piece of art' is speech rather than painting or poem.
Grow up, Sujai.
Vir Sanghvi: The goons who drove Husain out have shamed India. But if he accepts citizenship of a totalitarian state then Husain will shame himself. Now that MF Husain has taken Qatar citizenship, can we pls know how much freedom of expression there is in Qatar?
ReplyDelete@ Prasad:
ReplyDeleteCan/should a Andhra poet or artist get away with his art offending telangana culture and language, using his freedom of expression?
Yes.
It may be "Hate Speech" with no "data" to back it up. It may be emotional. It may just be a bunch of "Supremacist slur". But... YES.
Will Telangana people 'accept" it as a part of their "lessons in school" or as part of their "History"?
NO.
But... should such people be called to courts of law?
NO.
Why?
They just expressed their anger/frustration/emotions... etc.
However....
If they end up entering the houses of Telanganas and abusing their peace in their homes, tell their kids that the parents are drunkards, hooligans or naxals... than... you bet they have "crossed the line".
If they end up ganging up to execute an act of violence on telanganas, they would have crossed the line.
We bur effigies of our politicians all the time... we declare them dead when they are alive... so, whats the big deal about it?
Prasad:
ReplyDeleteCan/should a Andhra poet or artist get away with his art offending telangana culture and language, using his freedom of expression?
Yes he can. Criticizing and ridiculing a group identity is allowed under freedom of expression. We have been doing that on this blog for nearly three months now. Both Andhras and Telanganas have ridiculed each other. We may not like it, but there is nothing illegal about it.
We may not like what MF Husain painted, but Indians have done is go about shutting him down with legal proceedings, ransacking his house, and eventually kicking him out of this country. That’s unfortunate.
According to me, an Andhra poet/artist could continue to live in Telangana and ridicule our culture and language. We have other ways of expressing our displeasure against that poet/artist. We may boycott his products, but I defend the right of this Andhra poet/artist to ridicule Telangana.
In the last 3 months so many commenters have ridiculed Telangana people on this blog. I have not deleted their comments nor did I forbid them doing that.
All I said was we wanted a separate state citing many reasons, and one of them is a continued ridicule of Telangana people which resulted in discrimination of Telanganas. As much as Andhras have a ‘right’ to ridicule Telanganas, we have a right to seek a separate state within legal confines of Indian Constitution without trampling on the rights of Andhras to ridicule us.
The day you understand what I wrote above, you can throw a party to your friends that you have reached puberty ;-)
@ Prasad:
ReplyDeleteWhy did NOT MF Hussain exercise 'Artistic freedom of expression' in depicting nudity in Islam? Why specifically target Hindu goddesses and Bharatmata?
His choice.
He has teh freedom to pick and choose who he is angry with, who he likes/dislikes... which "widely" or "sparcely" followed school of thought he accepts.
It does not matter what the fundamentalists say but his new country and countries around it will do more than hindu zealots if something is done in the name of freedom.
Are you cursing him bacause of you dislike him? :)
Rant away....
Artistic freedom has limits in a free society just like free speech and freedom to propagate religion. He needs to respect that... he has no right to offend a community just like u wud prefer not to be offended for ur language, culture etc.
You are right... we would prefer not to be offended for our language, culture, etc.
But such offense speaks more of the "offender" than of the "Offended".
If Andhras go about "branding" Telanganas names (like naxals, fanatics, etc)... it speaks more of "their perspective and culture" more than anything else. The Offender's words do not define or certify an offended person... they describe the Offender's unique perspective.
What are the limits on "Artistic freedom"? Who defined those limits? Why?
In America, u will surely get killed by conservative South if u offend bible, church and Jesus. So, there r limitations to freedom.
Your argument is... America does it... so it must be right.
Did you look into whether "American laws" do it... or certain groups of "american people" do it?
His obsession is 'blasphemous' in ALL societies and religions. Let him respect the feelings of others and APOLOGIZE.
His "Obsession" is his business. Dont like his paintings? Dont watch them. Write Anti-blogs.
He certainly has hurt the feelings of a lot of people... so did Lagadapati. So did JC Diwakar. So did KCR.
Will you make these guys "Apologize" for what they said?
This does not justify the violence directed at him but all he had to do was apologize for offending a section of community and stop from further nude pics of hindu goddesses or ANY gods/symbols that offend sections of Indian community. He has other means of artistic expression like other artists have.
Can we say the same thing AFTER :
An Andhra writer/poet expresses his anguish on Telangana and ridicules T-culture and some T-groups go and bash him up and ransack his house? Will he apologise to the T-public after getting such a response?
Sujai:
ReplyDeleteIf u understand my posts above, u will realize my contention is there are limits to 'artistic' freedom just like speech and other forms of expression. When it crosses the line to offend 'sensitive' people, the person owes apology and as responsible artist, he should stop it even though he does not care about it. Even though u take all the abuses with big heart, several people resort to violence and protests when they feel insulted and there will be calls from all sections to desist from such 'expressions of freedom'. This is the parallel I wished to convey.
Liberal media appeases minorities and Hussain should be condemned for his decision to insult crores of Indian supporters by accepting citizenship of totalitarian state where these are considered blasphemous. Even though I do not care about other religions, if I enter their holy places, I have to respect their practice there. I expect the same things when ART enters religious premises.
Let him make dirty artistic cartoons of Mohammed from Qatar and lets see where it gets him.
Anuj and Green Star:
ReplyDeleteIf you find me the direct evidence to your assertion that Husain painted Hitler in nude because he wanted to humiliate Hitler, I am ready to change my opinion about Husain's motives.
I will stand in line with you to question Husain on his motives.
I will continue to defend his right to paint Hindu gods nude but will be ready to doubt his motives.
Thanks.
@ Madhav:
ReplyDeleteBut again, only in India do we have a a bogus form of secularism wherein secular invariably translates into anti-Hindu. What have you to say about the recent case of an article attributed to Taslima Nasreen in Kannada daily caused widespread protests.
Agree with you 100% on that one.
Secularism is an "Alien" concept to the Indian Psychology and culture... coz the ancient Indians were "divided" on so many levels for whatever reasons.
When India was declared 'Socialist Secular, Democratic Republic'....
The first two words were totally new concepts to the people here.
The Indian idea of "Secularism" to sum it up... is to be 'Anti-major-religion".
I am hoping it will evolve in future to be inclusive of the tolerance for Hindus too.
@ Sujai:
ReplyDeleteI will continue to defend his right to paint Hindu gods nude but will be ready to doubt his motives.
LOL!!
Guiding motives or "intent behind actions" is too complicated.
It ALMOST sums up to "Judging a person by his morals"....
where "Judging" needs a strict scale for measurement ... (Laws for all occasions)...
and "morals" sounds like the word to describe "fluidity in cultural terms".
So, how will you go about questioning motives? What will be the referenced-laws then? What moral-grounds will define the "real, acceptable or authentic" moral grounds to make such judgements on someone's motives?
@Telangana_Bidda:
ReplyDelete"What are the limits on "Artistic freedom"? Who defined those limits? Why?"
In a free society, people are entrusted with the responsibility to define limits of freedom of expression, be it speech, art or any form of expression. If Hussain knows that his art is being perceived insensitive by Hindus, he should respect that and desist from it.
"Your argument is... America does it... so it must be right.
Did you look into whether "American laws" do it... or certain groups of "american people" do it?"
You do not see the context of my views. I am saying religious sensitivity is important in even matured democracy like America. Artists in public domain have a responsibility towards society just like other fields of profession. As I said, free societies entrust u with certain responsibilities towards exercising the freedom.
"His "Obsession" is his business. Dont like his paintings? Dont watch them. Write Anti-blogs."
It is not his business when he intrudes into religious space of another individual domain. He flaunts his art in public domain ... tell him to keep it private and respect my views. If a porn video or vulgar song blares in public shows, can u ask me to shut my ears or ask the person who is showing it to stop?
"His choice.
He has teh freedom to pick and choose who he is angry with, who he likes/dislikes... which "widely" or "sparcely" followed school of thought he accepts. "
His choice but he is not an artist per se when he targets his art towards impinging a particular section of people 'consistently'. As long as his art offends me, I have the right to criticize his style and choice. Let him show his freedom in Qatar... towards beautiful women in middle east and Prophet.
@ Akash..
ReplyDelete""Sujai,
I support your views on Telangana but I differ you on this MF**Hussain.
Forget about all the theories, philosophies, religious fundas, a simple question.... What do you feel if an artist choose to paint your family member naked just because she/he is famous and well known. You can say sita is not a real person just an imagination... But I don't agree. I believe in god and I treat Sita one of my family members, as my mother. I do worship her as I do other gods. It's a belief. This stupid non-sense artist doesn't have a right to insult/hurt other's feelings.""
Hi Akash..I totally agree with what you said here..I am on the same page as you...let MF Hussain paint Sujai's family memeber and we will see what he has to say about that..will he still feel sorry for MFin Hussain...that looser was drawing naked pics of Sita, most of Hindu's treat her as mother and this guy didn't get it. I wish Sujai would atleast care to think a little bit before making such statements which would hurt millions of Hindus; I am happy Mfin Hussain is not a "Hindustani" anymore..that as*hole should be hanged and a sincere request to Sujai is stop writing such topics which hurts many..maybe I should just stop reading this blog..a waste of time...
Sujai thinks atheism gives him a license to support ANYTHING on the grounds of artistic freedom. But, he needs to realize that art IN PUBLIC DOMAIN cannot impinge on other people's sensitivities. Those who talk of artistic freedom think these artists are somehow above ordinary citizens and professionals from other fields who have such limitations in the work they do.
ReplyDeleteIt is insulting to millions of Indian supporters and a slap on the face of pseudo-liberals that he accepts a totalitarian state where Taslima Nasreen would have been hanged... we are not even talking about nude women here. Let him put an art exhibition...
ridiculous blog...offending topics and stupid followers who support such an article which offends millions of Indians...
ReplyDeleteGlad this idiot was kicked off to Qatar or he would have been killed here...to all the supporters of this article..please don't insult our history, our God..treat them with respect..would you still support this MF Hussain if he painted a person you knew/family as nude? grow up....please don't write such offending articles/comments....Jai Sri Ram!
http://bestofmails.com/informative/eye-opener-mf-hussain-truth/
ReplyDelete@ALL,
have a look at the above link...it shows the clear discrimination of MF Hussain..all Hindu gods are naked and all Muslim folks and Hussains family members are fully covered...why didn't he draw a nude pic of his daughter??
If this is the way things work and Sujai keeps supporting these morons, I kind of wonder where this would lead and what kind of example would it set?? grow up guys!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOn Hypocrisy in India:
ReplyDeleteWhat is more shameful?
A nude goddess?
A few LAKHS of women crossing broders in flesh-trade?
What is more disgusting?
A mad painter splashing his canvass ?
A conman in the guise of a God-man claiming to crores on TV that "He is the avatar, the god!"?
What is more annoying?
A divorced woman living with a "monk"?
TV Channels showing acts of intimacy a few thousand times and calling in "a panel of experts" to discuss it?
Who is the moral-authority?
The goons who plunder, break and destroy in the name of "preserving and protecting"?
The common man who is vexed with his everyday struggles and wants an "outlet" to his frustrations?
So.... Hussain did cross the line... in the eyes of a few crores of Indians. What do you say is the "pay-back" price? His life? His deportation? His death? His arrests? Maligning his image?
If Qatar kicks him out... Britain may still take him in.
Most (99%) of English books both pre and post Independence of India have conducted "cultural assaults" on India bu mis-representing its culture, sometimes, depicting it as a "pagan" and lost land.
Do the "preservers and protectors" have it in them to counter the centuries of attacks on "Indian Culture"?
NO.
What do they have in them?
To go after an old half-mad man who painted his hatred, his jealousy along with all other feelings he may have had... to what end?
@Telangana Bidda...
ReplyDelete"
To go after an old half-mad man who painted his hatred, his jealousy along with all other feelings he may have had... to what end?"
Its not going after an old man over here..it is people like Sujai few other folks supporting what the old mad man has done which insults us more...I follow Sujai's blog closely and this article is just so insulting, I feel so offended after reading this and I believe every Hindu who believes in God will feel the same way. MFin Hussain wounded us with his paintings and Sujai is adding salt to the wounds with his article here...damn!
Straight question: do you think Suaji will still right the same article if MFin Hussain painted a nude picture of his family member? answer is HELL NO, then who gave him the right to write about the mother goddess....
Hussain has the right to paint north indian gods whichever way he likes...
ReplyDeleteI have a right not to visit these nude god temples...
I almost feel like spitting on the nude carvings in many temples...
first of all , hindus should take up hammers and destroy all these useless semi -nude gods temples...and build proper ones..
and taslima has right to abuse whichever religion she wants to...
To the commenter above:
ReplyDeleteI cannot get into Sujai's shoes and tell you what stand he will take.
But, here is a question for you:
Poets of various centuries have written about the "romance" between mother Parvati and Lord Shiva.
Sculptors have, time and again, made idols of Gods and Goddesses on the temple walls, depicting romance and sometimes even sex.
Do these forms of expression offend you? If yes, will you go and plunder every statue that doesn't depict goddess in clothes?
Will you burn the poems of each poet who has written in such grotesque detail?
@ scripthost:
ReplyDeletefirst of all , hindus should take up hammers and destroy all these useless semi -nude gods temples...and build proper ones..
If an entire race of population living in a sub-continent for thousands of years don't find the temples 'abusive', why don't you grow some "tolerance" towards their belief?
Bidda....
ReplyDeleteI dont care how people build their temples and pray to their gods...
Like i said ,i felt bad when i went there ...but i did not do anything...
I am a followeer of the law....I can or cannot feel bad on the sculptures...That is up to me...
But i cannot hurt someone because of that ...
as per the semi-nude idols...let the temple managements (which i collectively called hindu's) shoudl decide..If they feel so bad ,They can destroy the idols so that some alien/muslim/chritian/jew will not make fun of them
I meant hindus can decide how they want to build their temples and what gods to worship..each temple management onto itself..
Maybe i should have framed my sentence's better..My bad..
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnd bidda,
ReplyDeleteNude /semi-nude temples in india is a troublesome concept..Many hindus know it but they do not want to accept it..
If you visit tirulmla you can see what the original statues were like and what dress the lord/godess are wearing /not wearing..
Later pujari's became embarrassed and now they are being covered with slik saris(chinese slik)....
That is the moral ambiguity of our population...
Fcuk hussain ji,
ReplyDeleteI am jewish ...I cannot go to pakistan...
Please get me visa to israael...
@ Scripthost
ReplyDeleteYour words:
Nude /semi-nude temples in india is a troublesome concept..Many hindus know it but they do not want to accept it..
If you visit tirulmla you can see what the original statues were like and what dress the lord/godess are wearing /not wearing..
Later pujari's became embarrassed and now they are being covered with slik saris(chinese slik)....
That is the moral ambiguity of our population...
You are speaking from ignorance buddy.
Ever seen the Roman Sculptures?
Ever seen the roman goddesses and roman heroes in stone?
Even Egypt, just south of the Jew-land has and always had nude sculptures.
You seem to be having a problem with an "ancient" belief being carried forward.
I don't think Hindus are embarrassed or ashamed of nudity in their temples.
What is... IS.
Hate it? Close your eyes.... and I am telling you exactly what I told the Hussain-haters.
@ Bidda
ReplyDelete""Poets of various centuries have written about the "romance" between mother Parvati and Lord Shiva.
Sculptors have, time and again, made idols of Gods and Goddesses on the temple walls, depicting romance and sometimes even sex.
Do these forms of expression offend you? If yes, will you go and plunder every statue that doesn't depict goddess in clothes?
Will you burn the poems of each poet who has written in such grotesque detail?""
How fair is it to say that if there is one guy who raped a gal, I can go ahead and rape that gal again and again every day, so infuture if someone asks why I did that, I would blame it on the first guy and will put a straight question: will you burn/kill the first guy who existed even before I was born??
not necessarily everyone listens to that poem which were written before my existence due to some stupidity, but things change...I am worried about a well educated guy like SUjai supporting hussain, what kind of example would it set to all the folks out there who read this blog?? I was strong follower of Sujai..unfortunately not anymore..hope he changes his stand on this..it is so offending...
And fcuk hussain ji,
ReplyDeleteI have written and spoken and given seminars at length on the dangers of modern jihadi ideology /madrassas...
It is because of this ideology people like thackreys(both british thackreys and Indian thackrey's ) crop up ..
When democratic critisim of any bad practice /religious ideology is stifled , people like thackreys crop up..I understand your anger
Which is why i said about taslima...
Should i also add that i support chritopher hitches/Salman rushdie etc etc
@ scripthost
ReplyDelete""
Nude /semi-nude temples in india is a troublesome concept..Many hindus know it but they do not want to accept it..""
Reallyyy?? how many Hindus reported this to you?? I heard people talk like above on a friday afternoon near charminar area after the prayers......if you got the news from there..let me make it clear "they are not reliable"
regarding your trip to Israel..I hope Hussain will read this blog and will sponsor you a visa to Qatar and his brother countries around......
@ bidda
ReplyDelete"I don't think Hindus are embarrassed or ashamed of nudity in their temples. "
Yes they are as far as i know..Just ask any one ...why anyone i asked TTD pujari he said
"yes times have changed ,we cannot /sculpt gods without saris' "
Rest of your statemenst i agree...
How fair is it to say that if there is one guy who raped a gal, I can go ahead and rape that gal again and again every day, so infuture if someone asks why I did that, I would blame it on the first guy and will put a straight question: will you burn/kill the first guy who existed even before I was born??
ReplyDeleteIt is not at all fair, if we are talking about a real-person... a woman.
But, in contemporary world... lot of cartoonists draw cartoons of opponent countries/ideologies/politicians in very "accusative" forms... and sometimes it goes beyond the normal-sense of acceptable decency.
PVN was once depicted as a woman. Does he become a woman?
Infact... PVN was depicted as a slut trying to lure his "supporters" into his fold... Is that supposed to be "actually raping the prime minister of a country"?
Indian culture is what it is... If there is nudity, there IS... if there is "Kama Sutra", there IS... If there is Ayurveda, there IS...
You are free to "choose" your faith... so, what is your problem with the Hindu temples and the sculptures? Stay out if you can.... and look elsewhere... may be at the palaces in Britain or the nude rome.
Fcuk Hussainji,
ReplyDeleteWhy would i get my view from charminar wallah's .They would skin me alive if i vist them..
Like i said i am an original jew ,one of the lost tribe from 'bene ephiram' near kotthareddipalem...do not tag me with charminar wallah's..
I am embarassed
@bidda
ReplyDelete""You are free to "choose" your faith... so, what is your problem with the Hindu temples and the sculptures? Stay out if you can.... and look elsewhere... may be at the palaces in Britain or the nude rome.""
I am not at all ashamed nor I have any problem with the Hindu temples and sculptures, I only have problem with people who criticize them, makes fun of them by painting nude pictures and also with the people who support them., Hindu culture is one of the most ancient cultures and no where it states that goddess Sita as "nude", how can MFin Hussain make the assumption and Sujai support this guy?
also, on your advice for "stay out if you can" ..so what do you expect? stay out when people like hussain humilate Hindu culture and educated people like Sujai support it blindly I need to go to Rome or Britian and say "I am proud to be a former Hindustani" I can see where these guys are leading us and that the reason I am putting in my views here which obviously doesn't matter to folks here (Sujai's followers) I guess.....
"Stay out if you can"
ReplyDeleteThis is as ridiculous as Sujai's post. Should millions of offended Indians stay out or ONE former Indian who thinks he is above anything and get away with anything.
The country has come to such a pass because of these pseudo-secularists who think minorities should get away with anything possible on any grounds. Because of such sympathizers in politics and media, people think it is trendy and fashion to speak for 'freedom of expression'. If a vulgar song is played on the streets and public places, offended people will definitely object to it and the person responsible should heed to these people. Same thing with vulgar posters in the name of ART in public display. If he is sensitive and obsessed with actresses, godesses, women in general, he should fantasize in private NOT public. MFHussain is a pervert and people who defend his actions and decisions are pseudo-secularists who have mortgaged self-esteem for Aurangazeb of art.
Meanwhile, if people think he can become Qatari and do such art in UK, think again. He is more likely to be killed in UK. Look at what happened during Danish cartoonists protests, yesterday protests against Danish MPs showing anti-islam movie and Islamic extremism is on rise there. I am sure he would keep his mouth shut and continue to draw provocative pictures for global audience catering to his perverted thoughts.
Sujai because India has a long traditin of dipicting gods in nude, does that mean that MFH can do it as well. Who were the people that depicted the Hindu gods in nude? They were people that had a deep understanding of the religion. Well....going by your own statement that because it was depicted nude before so can MFH..then dude .....if a husband has sex with his wife then all the men in the neighborhood can claim sex over that female just because she had sex with a male earlier. Excuse me for the crude anology...but thats my piece of opinion ( I do not consider my self an ass...hence I have a opinion)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous...
ReplyDeleteAt least it is an honest opinion unlike pseudo-secularists who think it is politically incorrect to criticize it.
He could have drawn ANY nude woman imagining whoever he wants to but he should NOT put identifiers and markers and say 'she is ur mom' or 'she is ur goddess'. Thats crazy and denigrating the secular credentials of Indians.
Sujai because India has a long traditin of dipicting gods in nude, does that mean that MFH can do it as well.
ReplyDeleteYes. Because he is not doing anything that has not been done before. Nudes in temples do not infringe upon the rights of anyone. Many artists of present generation continue to depict Hindu gods in nude. So why shouldn’t MF Husain?
Who were the people that depicted the Hindu gods in nude? They were people that had a deep understanding of the religion.
Not really. Usually artisans who made these sculptures and paintings were of lower caste, and were not even allowed inside the temples. It’s very hard to imagine that they had deep understanding of the religion as taught in the scriptures. They were following the cultural ethos of those times. Many Muslims artisans were also employed to create Hindu temples.
Many temples in the past served entertainment, including sex. Devadasi is very well known concept in the past. I am not ashamed of India’s past unlike the new conservative generations which refuse to see the reality of the past.
Prasad:
ReplyDeleteThe country has come to such a pass because of these pseudo-secularists who think minorities should get away with anything possible on any grounds.
So all this fuss is linked to MF Husain’s religious background? Would it be OK if MF Husain is Hindu?
@sujai
ReplyDelete"So all this fuss is linked to MF Husain’s religious background? Would it be OK if MF Husain is Hindu?"
There we have a bingo...The point is all about that ...of MF hussain being a Muslim and Qatar being a muslim country..
X- "Ayyo MAA devdulanni ...EVado Muslim Battalu lekunda dinchadu ...champeddam pada..."
Y- "Anna mari mana gudilo alaney untayi kada"
X- "Noru muyyi pakistani edava ..mana Vallu dichadam veru muslim dinchadam veru ..pada vadni narkudam"
That said , I also think Qatar just did this a form of nose thumbing against a 'hindu' country ...
Paintings of any form of female are banned in Islam (not only hindu but any Women/Mans painting nude/non-nude)
As vir saghvi said...hussain is no more than a court painter now..
Sujai:
ReplyDelete"Not really. Usually artisans who made these sculptures and paintings were of lower caste, and were not even allowed inside the temples. It’s very hard to imagine that they had deep understanding of the religion as taught in the scriptures. They were following the cultural ethos of those times. Many Muslims artisans were also employed to create Hindu temples. "
The workers did not do it on their own. It is the experts who who have decided the art and they are merely workers. They took directions from top including kings. Can people who do NOT believe in this faith create and destroy the symbols of the other faith? I DONT THINK SO. Can they do so being insensitive to believers to the other faith? I DONOT THINK SO.
Can you say workers are responsible for the product design? It is directions from top that the wage earners use to create a sculpture. This is more ridiculous than I thought ur article is.
Dude... please DO NOT resort to stereotypes to make and defend ur point of view.
@prasad
ReplyDeleteAll sujai is asking is
"If MF hussain underwent a course on Hindu paintings and painted the exact paintings that sujai posted ..(lets say he simply copied indian paintings of ravi veram/tyeb mehta) and lest say hussain also changes his religion to hapepens to call himself Madan chopraaa ...would these paintings be ok"
@Sujai:
ReplyDelete"So all this fuss is linked to MF Husain’s religious background? Would it be OK if MF Husain is Hindu?"
Yes... it should matter. Religion is extremely sensitive to people around the world. Catholics, muslims, Hindus, Jews etc. People are more sensitive to how other faiths perceive their faith as they do NOT practice that faith.
If MFHussain is a Hindu, he would NOT depict his faith goddesses in an insensitive way. If people object, STOP IT. Thats the bottomline in religious matters.
Let me ask u this: If a Hindu were to depict Prophet as a gay, leave Indian muslims, would Media, politicians and pseudo-secularists like u support it... NO. U guys will come up with ALL sorts of arguments to talk about cultural sensitivity etc. This is worst form of appeasement. It is perpetuation of such double standards that creates religious-based extermist groups.
Can you tell me what beauty did MFH see (as an artist) in Sita that he could NOT see in ordinary women around the world?
@prasad garu..
ReplyDelete"If MFHussain is a Hindu, he would NOT depict his faith goddesses in an insensitive way."
Well ravi verma and Tyeb mehta were hindus ..they DID do this..So did many Hindu artisans
"If people object, STOP IT. Thats the bottomline in religious matters."
Yes Husaain did...Do you know when these paintings were painted ...they were done in 1970's
Scripthost:
ReplyDelete"If MF hussain underwent a course on Hindu paintings and painted the exact paintings that sujai posted ..(lets say he simply copied indian paintings of ravi veram/tyeb mehta) and lest say hussain also changes his religion to hapepens to call himself Madan chopraaa ...would these paintings be ok"
Thats not the matter here. A converted hindu does NOT exist. A genuine, true believer, would never hurt Hindu sentiments and I am sure will be sensitive to people protests. He might have apologized and withdrawn his art, if ever his art if found insensitive by some sections. It is pretty straightforward than u guys r making it out to be. I do NOT see any reason to step on symbols or images of others faith unless I want to glorify something. A negative thing will surely hurt sentiments. MFH of Islam faith surely knows conservative people beliefs even though he might not believe in them. He can fantasize privately but NOT in public domain.
one more hilarious fact is....
ReplyDeleteThese paintings were painted in 1970's ,mostly for private galleries...
One magazine took these out in 1996 and made them public...and 1998 bajrang dal woke up...
I wish the same treatment should be meted out to all artists (hindu's included ) who do such paintings ...since 1970
"Thats not the matter here. A converted hindu does NOT exist. A genuine, true believer, would never hurt Hindu sentiments and I am sure will be sensitive to people protests. He might have apologized and withdrawn his art, if ever his art if found insensitive by some sections."
ReplyDeletehttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1405262.cms
Yes he did...He aplogized many times ...he said repetedly that it was for private galleries ..
It is not as if he displyed his paintings in eenadu daily edition or vaarta..
MF hussain was an unkown entity to the common masses ...these newspapers made these photos public ....out of private paintings...
ReplyDeleteNow suddenly india has turned 'artistic' ...
All of us let us visit the JJ school of art in mUmbai...
ReplyDeletelet us see how our fellow 'hindus' are painting gods.....
I assure you they will be far more 'vulgar' ....let us lynch each and every one of these painters regardless of his religion....
Narukudam okokokkadini....chalo mumbai...
"Well ravi verma and Tyeb mehta were hindus ..they DID do this..So did many Hindu artisans "
ReplyDeleteAs I said 'insensitive', if it is a public piece of work and if people deem it insensitive to their faith or belief, it should not be there.
I would like MFH to see beauty and creativity in suppressed religions so that he can give them freedom through art. Creative expressions knows no boundaries, correct?
"Yes Husaain did...Do you know when these paintings were painted ...they were done in 1970's"
Sorry for the bad news... Bharatmata was drawn nude in 2000s. Now is there a history for that? Is it justified to hurt peoples feelings as she does not physically exist?
"These paintings were painted in 1970's ,mostly for private galleries..."
ReplyDeleteu mean nude bars/galleries where there are warnings that images might hurt sensitivities?? NOT I guess. A private gallery got published on internet and his website... Nice.
host..
ReplyDelete"I wish the same treatment should be meted out to all artists (hindu's included ) who do such paintings ...since 1970"
No, I would go to the next step.. paint each and every woman, godesses in nudity, male gods as gays etc as ART gallery and see what treatment will be meted out to that artist.
@prasad garu ...
ReplyDeletePublic public antunnaru ...
When did he make them public ..did he publish in main news papers....
They are private galleries....
as for bharartmata ...It was displayed in a private gallery ....and the painting is not even called 'bharatmata'...
Bajranag dal thought it looked like 'bharatmata'...Hindu groups tagged it like bharatmata ..hussain never tagged it...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/who-named-controversial-painting-bharatmata-not-mf-husain/11208/
lol this is hilarious...
@prasad garu..
ReplyDelete"No, I would go to the next step.. paint each and every woman, godesses in nudity, male gods as gays etc as ART gallery and see what treatment will be meted out to that artist."
Yes ..I can even give you the address..wher it is done...
JJ School of Arts
Dhobi Talao
Mumbai City, Maharashtra, India
022 2262 1276
"A private gallery got published on internet and his website."
ReplyDeleteyes sadly yes,,,anyone can take a camera and take picture in gallery and post in internet...even of private gallery..Which people did in 1996
and yes it is his site it is private site...no one even knows or can access the URL ..but even then it is his site...
As for logics like
ReplyDelete"ee pakistan odu muslims ki against gaa drwing eyyadu enti"...
Poor guy got a fatwa passed gainst him for meenaxi....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenaxi:_A_Tale_of_Three_Cities
.even muslims seem to hate him..
@sujai
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't take an expert to judge hussian's intentions in those paintings. It is very obvious. If you look at the hitler painting, gandhi's skull is misplaced. The man on the left is albert einstein reciting E=MC2 which is the formula to determine the amount of energy derived from the amount of mass. The man right to gandhi is either pol pot or mao. The nude man in the right is hitler. Between the two dictators, three books are kept which are meant to be there influences. 1) Das kapital by karl max 2) Gitanjali by rabindranath tagore 3) Javid nama by allama muhammad iqbal
Einstein is an observer. The three men are mf hussains rendition of albert einstein's formula.
Pol pot or mao cannot be painted in the nude else it will be impossible to identify them with just the rice bowl and the chop sticks. I couldn't find the source article where hussain said he painted hitler in the nude to embarrass him. I was supposedly taken from a magazine which didn't have an online publication. Maybe someone could scan the pages and post in the public domain.
I think it's stupid trying to point out husain's duplicity or intentions when his portraits are simple to understand. He is clearly pointing out "bestiality" in hinduism under the guise of artistic freedom.
Some comparisons here.
http://bestofmails.com/informative/eye-opener-mf-hussain-truth/
If you look at all the painting together, then you'll see that only mythological gods are painted in the nude and are in a position performing "bestiality".
ReplyDeleteThe non-mythological characters are all fully clothed and placed in a portrait position.
@ scripthost...
ReplyDelete""yes sadly yes,,,anyone can take a camera and take picture in gallery and post in internet...even of private gallery..Which people did in 1996
and yes it is his site it is private site...no one even knows or can access the URL ..but even then it is his site...""
you are hilarious bro...seriously I couldn't stop laughing at your logic, for guys like you there is saying "dorkanantha varaku andaru dhorale" does that mean that if you do sin in your private premises then it is not a sin anymore....waahh..what a logic..!! you keep rocking!
2. Are we attacking him because he is a muslim??
Really SUjai? did you really ask that question?? and Mr. Host is defending that..awesome! I hope you guys still remember the treatment that was given to the hindu guy who wrote the novel on Draupadi and a case was filed against him as well. Its doesn't matter who does it, all we want is minimum respect.
To give an example: if a Telangana guy (Like D.S)stands against Telangana or doesn't support the bifurcation are we not opposing him?? please guys, its clear you don't have any good points to support this ridiculous article so don't make a fool of yourselves by adding more invalid stupid arguments over here...
"you are hilarious bro...seriously I couldn't stop laughing at your logic, for guys like you there is saying "dorkanantha varaku andaru dhorale" does that mean that if you do sin in your private premises then it is not a sin anymore....waahh..what a logic..!! you keep rocking!"
ReplyDeleteSin is different from legal crime...
as per penal code unless a painting is put in a major public place it cannot offend sensibilities...
If i do a sin in my private premises yes it is a sin....
but it cannot be called a crime if it does not hurt/affect anyone in public...
We charge people for crimes in this country not sins...
as per dorakanatha varaku andaru doralaey...as i said they are many more artists who did this and are stilll doing it in india...
I am not sure why they are not being targeted...
@Fcuk hussainji,
ReplyDeleteI agree what he did was sinful /bad ..As per many religions islam included...
But it is a sin ..leave it to that ...It is not a crime...no one was hurt physically/metally
People did not even know about hussain ,until someone posted his paintings in major news papers...and who posted these paintings in hindu magazines?
and said "see how bad this guy is "
As per that guy for draupadi novel ...proper legal process was follwed as it was a public book available in market...I would like the same legal process to be followed in this case as well..let the court decide..
lets have the same legal process for hussain...let the court decide..
"they are many more artists who did this and are stilll doing it in india...
ReplyDeleteI am not sure why they are not being targeted..."
good questions, I think its better to deal one at a time..once we figure out the MFin hussain issue we will get to others...
also, are you not watching the "swamiji" issues coming out lately? its the Hindus who are burning their potraits and ashrams..I hope you got that!
Regarding Sin and Crime, if you commit a sin that effects your karma, you commit a sin and offend/hurt/insult others then it is a crime....and if you support crime thats even worse...
Anuj:
ReplyDeleteArt can be interpreted the way you want. Let's not go into that.
If you cite the evidence that MF Husain said he painted Hitler in nude to humiliate him, I am willing to reconsider my stance on this subject. Please do not give me your interpretations, because I am equally capable of making interpretations of that painting which can be exact opposite.
Thanks.
To give an example: if a Telangana guy (Like D.S)stands against Telangana or doesn't support the bifurcation are we not opposing him??
ReplyDeleteOpposing him is different from putting a legal case against him and making it difficult for him to live in this country. Please read the comments above – lot of clarification on this is already done.
"once we figure out the MFin hussain issue we will get to others..."
ReplyDeleteThats more of a relief thanks...
@sujai
ReplyDeleteI am equally capable of making interpretations of that painting which can be exact opposite.
That is what i meant when i said, you opinions lack ethics. You have said that you do not talk about ethics or morals for it's subjective nature but when you take a side or a stand, you explain why you took it.
So far you have said that hussain is free to draw anything he wants but the constitution clearly denies that right.
You have been troll baiting some comments here which were not necessary. Nudity is not a problem. End that discussion right there.
This is what you said earlier...
I will continue to defend his right to paint Hindu gods nude but will be ready to doubt his motives
I agreed and hence proceeded to interpret the "guilty" portrait. But when i presented it you reacted with "Please do not give me your interpretations, because I am equally capable of making interpretations of that painting which can be exact opposite"
An argument could stretch several pages without ever agreeing to anything.
Let me see your interpretation. I mean, what the hell are we discussing if not these paintings? Can you explain to me why you do not see a trace of "bestiality" in many of those paintings?
One of the reasons why i asked you whether your position was *absolute free speech* or *condition free speech*.
Anuj, Green Star:
ReplyDelete;-)
About MF Husain: did he or did he not say that he painted Hitler in nude only to humiliate him?
We will engage in a lively discussion after you provide the source for that statement!
So far you have said that hussain is free to draw anything he wants but the constitution clearly denies that right.
ReplyDeleteJustice Kaul has upheld Husain's right to paint nudes - clearly establishing the interpretation of Constitution.
@sujai
ReplyDeleteAbout MF Husain: did he or did he not say that he painted Hitler in nude only to humiliate him?
Im not the one who holds a rigid stand here dear sujai. It is you have wrote this article defending mf hussain and your in the defensive here.
Our discussion doesn't end with my inability to present a source because that is not your case, it is mine and i agree i have failed to provide that evidence.
I have chosen another way to settle this issue by interpreting the portraits ourselves but you clearly do not want to do that.
You on the other hand do not have a case to begin with. You cannot give me one good reason to defend him besides "artistic freedom" which itself is non-existent in this country. The latest court ruling does not change the fact that hussain had clearly defaulted on his right. There will be yet another court ruling challenging the previous ruling but it still won't have the final say now won't it?
Blogs are not meant to be what you have made this one to be. People convey an opinion, discuss, learn, alter and move on. But i do not find a similar intent is this blog.
So, what purpose does this blog serve to you, sujai? Why so many hyperboles? Why always stick to an adamant stand? What do you find so humiliating about changing a stand?
@ Anuj:
ReplyDeleteIm not the one who holds a rigid stand here dear sujai.
It’s not about being rigid. You claimed MF Husain painted Hitler in nude ONLY to humiliate him. I find that hard to believe because I know many artists in my life, and I am an artist myself, and I have seen thousands of paintings in art galleries across the world, and I believe that nudity for MF Husain is not humiliation. And therefore, I defended his motives on artistic grounds. However, if your claim is true, then my defense needs to be relooked.
I am ready to change my opinion provided I get to know that MF Husain painted Hitler in nude ONLY to humiliate him. You can take any time you want, I will wait.
I have chosen another way to settle this issue by interpreting the portraits ourselves but you clearly do not want to do that.
I know enough about art to know that there can be million interpretations to art; the more abstract it is the more the interpretations. There is now way of knowing the actual intent of an artist, unless that intention is recorded somewhere. For example, nobody knows about Mona Lisa of Leonardo Da Vinci and hence so many speculations and fantastic interpretations.
Take a look at these pictures:
http://homepage.mac.com/dmhart/WarArt/Picasso/Guernica/Guernica.JPG
http://educators.mfa.org/dynamic/slides/attached_file_9169.jpg
http://rjdent.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/salvador_dali1_1.jpg
If the viewer already knows the paintings, then he/she may know the interpretation since the artists made the interpretation available. However, to a new eye this picture many conjure up many interpretations. Try to show it someone who doesn’t know about the paintings and ask him/her to interpret them.
You cannot give me one good reason to defend him besides "artistic freedom" which itself is non-existent in this country.
We do have artistic freedom in this country. It does come with restrictions. Whether Husain violated it or not is a matter of debate. It can be resolved through a set of verdicts. The most recent one from Justice Kaul has defended his right. If Husain fights each of those cases using that Supreme Court ruling he may win all the cases, but the problem is there are hundreds of cases, and he is being haunted by many people in this country, including governments.
Constitution Article 19 (2) has to be seen in the context of the recent rulings in the country. The drafters of this Constitution explained that interpretations to legal statements will depend on how the courts will interpret it.
The latest court ruling does not change the fact that hussain had clearly defaulted on his right.
How did you come to conclusion that Husain has defaulted on his right? Your interpretation or the ruling of a court?
Whether he has defaulted on his right is a matter of debate. I have defended his right whereas you have challenged it. We can agree to disagree or go with what is available now – Justice Kaul’s ruling. Or you could still challenge it.
Blogs are not meant to be what you have made this one to be. People convey an opinion, discuss, learn, alter and move on. But i do not find a similar intent is this blog.
You can read the post titled, ‘Where do I stand?’ That explains the most of it.
You have a sensitivity of a 8 year old.You cannot take any criticism against Telangana which is really a movement of politicians making innocent baits.You use insane words like rape and victims to depict Andhra and Telangana.You are used to parochial thinking.Hey a dalit can abuse any other dalit with choicest caste invectives that is not considered an atrocity.If you or me do that we will be booked under ST/SC atrocities act.You really have to do some research to understand the meaning of nude pictures in Hinduism.
ReplyDeleteRSS people tear down posters of explicit films then they must be buldozing kazuraho.
ReplyDeleteMost of my friends got angry when i said Shiv linga is phallus or penis.But the fact is that we are worshipping dicks for the past 5 thousand years.
ReplyDeleteI think Indians were very liberal when it comes to sexuality. But the Muslims Crashed the Party and now Indians are among the most sexually repressed people.
ReplyDeleteMuslims allover very pretty upset when some Danes made Cartoons of Mohammed. If MF hussien really had balls he would have depicted the Prophet ramming a goat.
ReplyDelete@ Fck Hussien
ReplyDeleteu are talking abt karma and Sin.
Does it improve our karma when we go to temples depicting orgies of Ram or Krishna having group sex.
//Most of my friends got angry when i said Shiv linga is phallus or penis.But the fact is that we are worshipping dicks for the past 5 thousand years//
ReplyDeleteHey you'll understand when you become infertile or impotent.
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteWhether yu accept it or not, most people(could be generalized) tend to eulogize any thing they feel is done to protect conservatism. Some times even the most free thinking progressive rationalists too. The very person who would denounce violence and religious prejudice might come down to criticize the person and support the people who irrationally attack and derogate him/her. That is what happened with MF Hussain.
The most rational of all indians also have condemned him with out regrets. But just imagine if it was some one else other than MF Hussain, some christian or hindu(as famous as MF Hussain). I do not think there would have been such a big controversy.
This is because of the prejudice most non-muslims all over the world carry towards muslims. The prejudice that has roots with in the out dated fundamentalism that is being propagated by some radical muslims all over the world. People do not understand that Islamic Terrorism today is actually a confluence of local and regional problems/conflicts that accumulated over decades to represent a whole religion.(The earliest conquerers of Muslim world have taken the Islamic holy war propoganda to attract people to fight for them.) It has reached to global levels.
For instance in USA the famous South park comedy depicted Mohammed in a derogatory way but had to remove the scenes to avoid any Muslim attacks.
The same prodcers did not move an inch when they were criticized for vulgarly depicting Virgin Mary. They simply supported their free expression rights.
So it is clear that MF Hussain faced it only and only because of being a muslim. The very muslims who are tainted by prejudice because of their own men who turned radical. Prejudice begets prejudice. That is the truth.
MF Hussain was condemned because he was a muslim and in today's scenario a dominant muslim sect has injected hatred among people. Non-muslims today simply stereotype muslims because of this. They expect danger to their cultures and religion from Radical Islam. This fear has fuelled the over reaction to MF Hussain's paintings. Poor MFH should have foreseen this being a muslim.
It is not because he is MF. Hussain,the artist but just because he is a Muslim.
@ Sravan:
ReplyDeleteYour above comment is "Well said."
But, in the Indian context of MFH's episode, there is more to it than just "MFH is a muslim". It is a 'deep embarrassment' injected into the psyche of people from his 'nude' pictures.
Average 'Hindu' today finds it 'derogatory' and 'vulgar' to see nude sculptures. Somewhere along our 'modernization', a self-doubt has crept in. The feeling of "denying our truth out of shame" has gone so deep, most Hindus have forgotten that the "acceptance of the world, JUST AS IT IS" is what most of the "cultural remains" speak of. There was worship of fertility, wide acceptance of man-woman relationship as "sacred" and "life" was rejoiced too.
Somewhere along the course of our journey, we started believing that "renunciation" and "celibacy" are the ONLY true virtues preached by our religion. A Christian ideology in Indian Hinduism? Or... are Indian Hindus today seeing their own religion and judging their own way of life through the "Christian perspective of Hinduism"?
Average 'Indian' today feels shy talking about or taking pride in the age-old culture and its remnants.
A Classic example of "cultural attack" that the population (even the educated classes) suffer ... after centuries of being told that "These things are BAAD!". Does it happen so because we learn about our roots in "English".... a language that doesn't always have enough words to describe or justify why we "worship fertility" or accept human-way-of-life AS-IS?
TG_B,
ReplyDeleteNot just average hindu but an average Indian does feel shy talking about nudity and sex in today's scenario. But this pertains to a layman's world. In artistic world nudity is actually celebrated. I am sure any school of fine arts in contemporary india do the same and teach the same to their students. To celebrate nudity has been essence of art and sculpture since ages. If you have any aquaintances at the JNTU school of Fine Arts or Sarojini Naidu School of Fine Arts please do confirm.
I do not however simply sympathize with MFH. In reality, I felt bad when I looked at his couple of controversial paintings. I wasn't accustomed to watch the deities in such form. If i simply appreciate him and support him, then I would be sucumbing to false pretension and duly be called an elitist pig.
I do not support him totally. Infact I was taken aback to know that he repeated the act twice and once after an apology.
But still I do condemn the over reactions of people who just react with strong actions against an eminent painter, just with a pretense of protecting Hindu Culture and tradition.
I only meant that he should be given a chance to proove his innocence in the court of law. As an Indian he has the constitutional right to do so.
Whereas these people who over reacted do not have any right to intimidate him or attack him.
They simply succumbed to the conservative idea of protecting the hindu culture.
I could bet that even if MF Hussain wasn't condemned, nothing would have happened to indian culture or any indian tradition. Indian culture unlike several other ancient american cultures with stood time and survived centuries of outside influence. It did so by simply allowing the other cultures to assimilate with it self. Where as present american culture is to accept any thing our Indian culture is somewhat moderate. It has been like that for several centuries. It is ingrained in Indian Culture. It allows assimilation but not superimposition.
That is the reason why I am against the notion of andhra people who carry an outdated feeling that andhra telugu is pure. It is really annoying to my comprehension and logic.
When da vinvi code movie was released in hyd, the christians protested.
ReplyDeletechristians in europe laughed and made a statement "when we real christians have no problem why are the fake christians of india worried"
Why do we in india support 'artistic freedom' only in cases against hindus.
and we go about banning the da vinci code in india.
pok:
ReplyDeleteYou suffer from 'selective reading syndrome'. That's because you are more obsessed with people's degrees than honing your own intelligence. ;-)
I write on one post:
The populations in the West do not go to streets the minute they see an American flag being burnt in a remote town in Palestine. They do not get onto streets to protest against Da Vinci Code though it targets at the fundamentals of its religion. However, the same movie raises massive protests in other parts of the world, such as in India, Philippines, etc, where the movie is eventually banned. Here, we can see the clear difference in maturities of different civilizations. Not all of us are at the same maturity level when it comes to dealing with international events as they unfold before us.
In another post, I write:
Heretic Da Vinci Code
Indian Christians saw something more in Da Vinci Code movie than the Christians of the West. While most countries in West allowed this movie to be screened, Indian governments, in their eagerness to satisfy its Christian protestors, went ahead to ban this movie from getting screened.
The funny aspect of this story is that Muslims supported their brothers-in-arm Christians in this ban. One blind fellow showing direction to another blind!
In another post:
Bad Examples...
A Christian in Mumbai went on a hunger strike to force the government to ban 'Da Vinci Code'. The governments of AP, Tamil Nadu, Punjab and Goa went ahead and banned this book citing the reasons that Christians' 'sentiments would be hurt' by this movie.
In another post, I write:
Some Muslims are OK with attacking Taslima but not OK with Hindus running riot in Gujarat. These people who opinionate these so selectively are educated and uneducated, both men and women, are coming from rural and urban India. Such selected preferences of our sympathies and selected justifications of curbing of our rights has become symptom of this disease. When we sympathize with those who banned the book that detailed riots of 1984, and when we sympathize with those who ban Da Vinci Code, why can't we sympathize with attack on Taslima now?
Interesting that samykhandhra idiots are opposing hussein and telenganaites are supporting Hussien.
ReplyDeleteSujai,
ReplyDeleteYou didn't get the point.
If its ok to paint nude goddesses, is it also ok to do caricature of symbols from islam or christianity?
Can MFH or any other muslim or any non-muslim dare to do such things against islam? No. Why? there would be worlwide repurcussions.
Therefore non one dares to do such things. Not one soul on this earth supported 'artistic freedom' of those who did the danish cartoon.
So the supreme court which says the MFH pictures are ok, does not do anything when the da vinci code movie/book is banned eventhough the whole of christiandom was ok with it.
Sujai said...
ReplyDeletepok:
..... That's because you are more obsessed with people's degrees than honing your own intelligence. ;-)
Looks like i touched a raw nerve there in one of my posts. I was surprised to see no reaction from you then. Anyway the post wasn't intended for you in particular but more for the others mentioned who i studied with.
Hi Sujai, It is not the work that is creates the problem. It is the intention. Hussain once said whenever he wants to humiliate someone he draws them nude. He said this when asked about his nude painting of Hitler. So when he draws nude painting of Indian Goddesses it is understood why he draws it.
ReplyDeleteShaan:
ReplyDeleteIt is not the work that is creates the problem. It is the intention. Hussain once said whenever he wants to humiliate someone he draws them nude.
I asked Green Star, Anuj, the evidence for such a statement from MF Husain.
Now, I ask you - if you provide the evidence or a proof that MF Husain the said 'I painted Hitler in nude ONLY to humilaite him', I am ready to change my opinion on this topic.
Thanks.
Pok:
ReplyDeleteIf its ok to paint nude goddesses, is it also ok to do caricature of symbols from islam or christianity?
As I said earlier, I consider MF Husain a conservative artist. He still goes with the conventional cultural ethos. Artists tend to depict images that they are familiar with from their surroundings, from the images they pick up, and also they are influenced by looking at other works of art. That means, if you grew up in post-renaissance impressionist period of France, there is a likelihood you would have painted an impressionist paintings.
Artists tend to attach symbols with certain ideas. It depends on what you are familiar with. One may look at Gandhi and depict him with his khadi cloth-half naked, while the other may think of glasses, or another just the stick, or an abstract concept like truth. If you are avid enthusiast of old temples and you have visited only those temples while avoiding the working temples because they are crowded, you will have a different image of Hinduism – you will think of nude goddesses, dancing and posing. When you think of Mother Teresa you may be reminded of her white drape.
What MF Husain has painted is very much in tune with what is available in the world. A nude Saraswati existed before Husain painted her nude. Nude goddesses existed before Husain painted them nude. He didn’t do anything dramatic. He was only expressing what he is familiar with. Also, portraying men or women in nude is something extremely common in all art forms. Many artists take courses in art and paint people nude. After sometime nudity doesn’t seem to hit you as obscene.
Coming to your question, ‘is it also OK to do caricature of symbols from Islam and Christianity?’
Yes. While one religion has come to tolerate them another has not. There are many caricatures of Christian symbols including nude Christ and seducing Christ. Islam continues to protect their symbols and go radical about it, and the result is that Muslims are seen by the world as extremely intolerant.
Hi Sujai,
ReplyDeleteThe pictures you have put are all too common in many parts of India but your interpretation is not correct.
The pictures of the naked male God is "Bhairav". Everybody knows that he is one of the smaller deities that you can find in the surrounding areas of temples. "Bhairav" is depicted as naked because even according to the legends associated with him he is considered to lead an ascetic like life much like the naked sadhus who descend from the Himalayas during the Kumbh Mela.
The sculpture of the woman giving birth is not that of Kali. It is an ordinary woman. There are sculptures like that in Tamil nadu. If you look at the surroundings you can find other people like the woman's husband and mid wife. But the picture you have put is cut to show only the woman. Even in this picture you can find the woman holding a rope tightly to make it easy during child birth.
The sculpture of Shiva-Uma is not nude. You can clearly see that they are clothed.
The phallic lingam you have put is present in some Himalayan countries. In Bhutan even today it is considered good luck to paint a phallus in front of the temple. Again the God in front of that is Bhairav.
The statue of Saraswati and other Goddesses without their breast uncovered is seen all over India but you have to note that even before a few hundred years (even after the British came) in some areas in India (like Kerala) it was quite normal for women to have their breast uncovered. The statues therefore only reflect the society at the time. Even today artists draw taking those as models. But they always cover the lower portion.
Regarding the picture of Hanuman, the woman is not Sita. It is Turantantikai, sister of Mahiravan considered to be Ravan's brother according to Tamil folk and other folk sources of Ramayan. Here is a paragraph that explains the woman, the tree and the mountain in Hanuman's hands - "Hanuman uproots the huge tree, and after reaching the suberranean
cave, disrupts the ceremony. After the fiery demon is subdued, the demon salutes
Hanuman and vanishes. Mayilirivanan escapes from the cave and turns himself into
a silvery mountain covered with trees and mansions. Turantantikai points to Hanuman
the silvery mountain which is the guise of Mayilirivanan." The story is available here - http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/afs/pdf/a538.pdf
Rathi and Manmatha are not considered to be Gods. They are only Devas, that too of love.
I think I have given you some credible explanation.
Anyway, Hinduism is a religion that moves with time. We can only see whether his works are in line with the contemporary beliefs and whether his intention is right. If we can justify his works based on hundreds/thousands of years old Hindu beliefs and art then we can very well justify Sati and polygamy as these were also part of the Hindu belief system not long ago.
Hinduism is not a rigid religion like Islam that has codified practices that allow things like polygamy and underage marriages under the veil of religion even in a secular democratic nation like India. Hinduism is a flexible religion but flexibility does not mean freedom for non-Hindus to hurt the feelings of Hindus.
Hi Sujai, You are asking me for proof but has Hussain denied it though much has been written about this in the media? He has gone on record in an interview with Tehelka after this controversy and said that nudity means purity. Does this mean he drew Hitler nude to mean he was pure?
ReplyDeleteHe also has said that he does not draw Islamic symbols because even if one calligraphy goes wrong they will tear things down.
Then why does he insist on not removing his paintings even when most Hindus protest against it?
Doesn't this mean he can afford to hurt feelings of Hindus but not that of Muslims?
He says - " When I was doing this, some conservative Muslims told me, why don’t you paint on Islamic themes? I said, does Islam have the same tolerance? If you get even the calligraphy wrong, they can tear down a screen."
Perhaps he is unaware that Hindu religious sculptures/paintings have to conform to the Shilpa Shastras?
Can you show me at least his one painting that has a Muslim person in nude? It is always Hindu Goddesses and Hindu people depicted nude.
Here is the interview - http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=Ne020208in_hindu_culture.asp
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteThe pictures you have put are all too common in many parts of India but your interpretation is not correct.
The statue of Saraswati and other Goddesses without their breast uncovered is seen all over India but you have to note that even before a few hundred years (even after the British came) in some areas in India (like Kerala) it was quite normal for women to have their breast uncovered. The statues therefore only reflect the society at the time. Even today artists draw taking those as models. But they always cover the lower portion.
I know of so many paintings and sculptures made in the recent times where the goddesses continue to be nude. I don’t think goddesses being naked only to do with reflection of the society. If you see many paintings of renaissance, you will see nudity, but that does not mean it reflected the society.
Rathi and Manmatha are not considered to be Gods. They are only Devas, that too of love.
Are Shiva/Parvathi gods or devas? They are posing nude in Elllora. Are Vishnu/Lakshmi gods or devas? There is a sculpture available on the internet for sale in which Lakshmi is naked on the top. There’s no point to such nitpicking. Gods and goddesses, even the major ones, have been depicted nude in Hinduism and it was never considered obscene – that is the most important point to take home.
If we can justify his works based on hundreds/thousands of years old Hindu beliefs and art then we can very well justify Sati and polygamy as these were also part of the Hindu belief system not long ago.
There are many practices we continue to inherit without abandoning them and some others we discard. Sati harms people – it allows killing someone.
So, the question is whether painting a god nude in continued or abandoned. There is a god that has come up in Warangal in the last 5 years, and he was depicted nude with genitals clearly visible. I have seen many painters and artists who have depicted Lakshmi with naked breasts, all in the present times. We don’t make any attempt to get rid of our temples that have nude statues. If the government makes a ban, as it did in Sati and polygamy, and removes all nude statues and paintings, including those from Ellora and Ajanta, through a legal diktat, then you have a legal case against MF Husain. Depicting naked goddesses does not affect people. You have every right not to see it.
Mental agony spread over a group is not considered harming people, because there is no limit to what can cause mental agony of a group.
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteYou are asking me for proof but has Hussain denied it though much has been written about this in the media?
Not denying does not mean accepting it either. NASA has not debunked the theories that were floating around which questioned Moon landing. It remained silent for nearly 35 years. Does that mean NASA accepted the theory that Man never landed on the moon?
Just because he has not denied it does not mean he accepted it.
He has gone on record in an interview with Tehelka after this controversy and said that nudity means purity. Does this mean he drew Hitler nude to mean he was pure?
Nudity means purity for many artists, but one can depict evil through nudity as well – by adding other symbols. MF Husain put a skull, then a swastika, then made Hitler’s face gnarling. See, we don’t know what each symbol means to MF Husain. There is not fun making interpretations because there can be thousand interpretations to a painting.
He also has said that he does not draw Islamic symbols because even if one calligraphy goes wrong they will tear things down.
That only shows that even MF Husain takes pride in the fact that Hinduism is a tolerant religion, and that it has a continued practice of depicting their goddesses in nude. What’s the problem?
Then why does he insist on not removing his paintings even when most Hindus protest against it?
Why should he? Does Indian government go about removing all the nude sculptures from its old temples?
Doesn't this mean he can afford to hurt feelings of Hindus but not that of Muslims?
Does Kajuraho hurt feelings of Hindus?
Perhaps he is unaware that Hindu religious sculptures/paintings have to conform to the Shilpa Shastras?
Really? I have seen so many nude paintings and statues of Indian gods and goddesses and I don’t see any conformance to shilpa shastras. Is originality encouraged by conformance or by giving freedom?
Can you show me at least his one painting that has a Muslim person in nude? It is always Hindu Goddesses and Hindu people depicted nude.
Islam has no history of painting people in nude, but Hinduism has a practice of depicting goddesses in nude.
Hi Sujai, Islam has no history of nude painting cannot be compared with Hinduism having semi-nude paintings. You cannot compare a religion that did not have a common religious work and a common religious prophet/guru to a religion that is founded on a single book and a single prophet. The only matter is whether it offends the feelings of the followers of the religion. In this case it disturbs peace in the world much like what the Danish cartoons have done. The West has argued much in favor of the Danish cartoons, more than what supporters of Hussain have done in India. The power of argument does not mean it is essentially right or good for society.
ReplyDeleteKannappa offered pork to Lord Shiva according to Hindu legends. That does not mean freedom to offer pork to Shiva in every temple or even in the Kalahasti temple where the act was originally said to have taken place. Similarly you cannot simply compare Hindu religious art that was/is done for worship to Hussain's art that is done basically for entertainment.
Hinduism has always absorbed other religions like folk religions and even Buddhism so much that the Buddha is now considered an incarnation of Vishnu by Hindus. The Buddhists do not agree it but Hindus do believe it. Similarly one can easily say (for argument sake) that Prophet Mohamed was an incarnation of a Hindu God/saint and paint (at least fully clothed) him, because he now becomes a part of the shapeless bottomless topless Hindu religion. But then this will lead to riots.
Arguments are good, anybody with intellect can do that. But what matters is whether the solution reached is good for the society. In this case there is no harm if Hussain removes his paintings. If he had done that it would have closed the chapter. But he was adamant on displaying it and continues to do it.
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteIt is not the work that is creates the problem. It is the intention.
How do you define intention legally? How can you make a person legally culpable based on intentions? If indeed intentions are important in a case, shouldn’t the ambiguity benefit the accused and not the accuser?
How do you know MF Husain had a bad intention when he clearly says nudity is purity in Hinduism? You have not still found the critical piece of evidence on which this entire ‘bad intention’ case is made –your allegation that MF Husain painted Hitler in nude ONLY to humiliate him.
… but flexibility does not mean freedom for non-Hindus to hurt the feelings of Hindus.
How do you legalize that? What are hurt feelings? If I say I get hurt when you step out of the door, can my ‘hurt feelings’ make the state prohibit you from stepping out of the door?
There are thousands of statues and paintings which are all nude. Some of them have come up in the recent past. Can a Hindu person hurt feelings of other Hindus by painting goddesses in nude? If not, why can’t a Muslim paint goddesses in nude?
How do you make a law in a secular country that says a Hindu can paint his/her goddess in nude but not a Muslim? Many Muslim artisans are employed to make Hindu paintings and statues. So, will you prohibit them for working on them?
Painting goddesses in nude is a matter of taste, not a matter of legality. There are two posts on this blog title ‘Larry Flynt’. If you read it, you will understand why it is important to uphold the freedom of a person even when he does something disagreeable. When we shut him up we lose much more.
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteThe only matter is whether it offends the feelings of the followers of the religion.
That should not be a matter of legality in a secular country. That’s why Danish cartoons were allowed in Denmark; and as a support many other newspapers and magazines printed those cartoons.
In this case it disturbs peace in the world much like what the Danish cartoons have done.
The only solution to that is – grow up; there is no other alternative. Disturbing peace is not a good excuse to trample upon someone rights. What MF Husain did was not a hate speech, he did not instigate anyone to hurt anyone. He just painted Hindu gods in nude – did something that was already a prevalent tradition in this country.
The West has argued much in favor of the Danish cartoons, more than what supporters of Hussain have done in India. The power of argument does not mean it is essentially right or good for society.
It is. The power of argument is good for the society.
Otherwise you would not have got this freedom today. You would not have fundamental rights as a citizen today. You would have been a subject of a tyrant king instead of being a citizen with inalienable rights.
You should read Locke, Paine, Jefferson, what they have done. Their power of argument transformed us from being slaves, as property, to people with rights; from being persecuted on our religious beliefs to being able to practice religion on our choice.
It is the power of argument that saved mankind from its tyrants and autocrats. What differs us modern citizens from our ancestors who accepted living as subjects of a king is the freedom of expression. We cannot suppress it whenever we feel like.
That does not mean freedom to offer pork to Shiva in every temple
Why not? What stops people from offering pork to Shiva? If some Hindus come together and start offering pork to Shiva, is it considered illegal?
Similarly you cannot simply compare Hindu religious art that was/is done for worship to Hussain's art that is done basically for entertainment.
How do you know that old art was done in worship? Did you see some of the paintings in Kajuraho? Did you see the voluptuousness of the figurines? Did you know that temples had Devadasis who provided sexual entertainment? Why can’t you think those goddesses were portrayed in nude to arouse the audience who came to visit those devadasi? What stops anyone from making those interpretations? Have you read some of our Sanskrit texts? How they describe our gods and goddesses in erotic language? Compared to those statues in our temples, MF Husain’s art does not even look erotic.
How do you those artisans who sculpted those figures did it in worship? Did you talk to any of those artisans who has sculpted Saraswati in nude? How do you know his intentions?
On the other had Husain says he celebrates India and Hinduism, so why should we stop him from doing it? Nudity was never wrong in Hinduism. Eroticism was never wrong in Hinduism.
Contd…
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteSimilarly one can easily say (for argument sake) that Prophet Mohamed was an incarnation of a Hindu God/saint and paint (at least fully clothed) him, because he now becomes a part of the shapeless bottomless topless Hindu religion. But then this will lead to riots.
Leading things to riots is different from whether a person has a legal right to do it or not. I say you have a legal right to paint Mohammed the way you want to – that’s what Danish Cartoons did. Whether you like to exercise the right or not is up to you. I say that Salman Rushdie and Taslima have a legal right to write what they want and I support their right to do so.
I would like India to become a country which allows such freedoms, not the one which curtails it. I don’t want India to become Iran. Right now, we have taken a step backward with MF Husain. We could not protect his rights.
In this case there is no harm if Hussain removes his paintings.
There is great harm if he removes his paintings. It sets a precedent that some people can come together a form a group and say that everything I do hurts their feelings. Such ‘hurt feelings’ to prosecute someone from expressing themselves should be stopped.
But he was adamant on displaying it and continues to do it.
He has never displayed it on a hoarding. You have a right to see it or not. He has never forced anyone to see his paintings.
Hi Sujai, European idea of secularism cannot be applied to a large multicultural country like India. In Europe and elsewhere Jews were persecuted, killed. When they came to India they gave up eating beef in order to appeal to the beliefs of Hindus. They have lived peacefully here for centuries. Similarly Hindus have tolerated killing cows in modern India though many Hindu scriptures say it is bad as a whole for the country. Muslims too have given up the idea of breaking idols. So essentially everybody gives something and takes something. Nothing is lost if Hussain gives up a little of his freedom of expression.
ReplyDeleteYou have argued that prosecuting a person for his expressions should be stopped but the right to prosecute is also a legal right. He may not have displayed them in hoardings but he has not displayed them in his private room or in his house either. He has displayed them in public exhibitions. You cannot say that only a small group protests against the paintings. Most Hindus who are aware of the issue are against the paintings. As always a group will come forward to represent the many. Your argument of 'a small group' and 'precedent' sadly reflects the argument of Telangana opponents who say that a small group of goons wants to divide the state and push outsiders out of Hyderabad and that it will be a precedent for the break up of India.
Not many in India would want to put up an exhibition of the Danish cartoons because there is nothing gained except hatred and pointless retaliation. Indian democracy and secularism thrive not because of the constitution that has been in place for the last 60 years but because of the give and take policy of Indians belonging to all religions. You cannot simply cling to the constitution and cry freedom of expression.
There are countries like Pakistan which started out as secular republics but changed themselves into nations affiliated to particular religions. That India did not choose to go down that path is only because of the tolerance of large number of Indians. Not considering the genuine feelings of people may give rise to hard feelings and erode that tolerance.
Sujai, did you heard the word called "commonsense" ever. Freedom of speech also has some limits, it don't take genius to understand that right?
ReplyDeleteLet me give you an example, if a person is has terrible looks, can you go and tell him he looks terrible and he better stay in home and say it is my right to express. I am giving it an example only not for comparison.
you almost equates freedom of expression with hatred towards a religion. If i hate a religion, i can hate it and i can publish it. Because i am free to hate that. you are walking on this line.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone need to grow up here, that is you my friend. first learn the difference between the hatred and freedom of expression. If hatred is also called as freedom of expression, then then varun gandhi also expressed his feelings, all extremists are just exercising their freedom.
Then why you oppose them? where are your so-called morals, so-called atheist ideologies?
Hi Sujai,
ReplyDeleteI haven't done extensive research on this issue like you or many of the readers who commented in the blog might have done. So, I don't want to get into any conclusions or make any statements from my end without a good knowledge on the topic. I think the arguments, counter arguments on this post are very healthy and are commendable.
Looking at the post and all the comments, I found the comment no. 154 from Shaan posing some very important questions. You seem to be very selective in replying to him as you have not replied to the following questions of his:
The pictures of the naked male God is "Bhairav". Everybody knows that he is one of the smaller deities that you can find in the surrounding areas of temples. "Bhairav" is depicted as naked because even according to the legends associated with him he is considered to lead an ascetic like life much like the naked sadhus who descend from the Himalayas during the Kumbh Mela.
The sculpture of the woman giving birth is not that of Kali. It is an ordinary woman. There are sculptures like that in Tamil nadu. If you look at the surroundings you can find other people like the woman's husband and mid wife. But the picture you have put is cut to show only the woman. Even in this picture you can find the woman holding a rope tightly to make it easy during child birth.
The sculpture of Shiva-Uma is not nude. You can clearly see that they are clothed.
The phallic lingam you have put is present in some Himalayan countries. In Bhutan even today it is considered good luck to paint a phallus in front of the temple. Again the God in front of that is Bhairav.
The statue of Saraswati and other Goddesses without their breast uncovered is seen all over India but you have to note that even before a few hundred years (even after the British came) in some areas in India (like Kerala) it was quite normal for women to have their breast uncovered. The statues therefore only reflect the society at the time. Even today artists draw taking those as models. But they always cover the lower portion.
Regarding the picture of Hanuman, the woman is not Sita. It is Turantantikai, sister of Mahiravan considered to be Ravan's brother according to Tamil folk and other folk sources of Ramayan. Here is a paragraph that explains the woman, the tree and the mountain in Hanuman's hands - "Hanuman uproots the huge tree, and after reaching the suberranean
cave, disrupts the ceremony. After the fiery demon is subdued, the demon salutes
Hanuman and vanishes. Mayilirivanan escapes from the cave and turns himself into
a silvery mountain covered with trees and mansions. Turantantikai points to Hanuman
the silvery mountain which is the guise of Mayilirivanan." The story is available here - http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/afs/pdf/a538.pdf
These questions are very important for you to answer, because if he was correct then the titles for your pictures are false and are not appropriate in this discussion that if MF Hussain was wrong in painting nude pictures of hindu godesses.
Having seen your reply to Anuj & Greenstar that you would reconsider your stance on MF Hussain if they provided the proof, I think you should also provide the proof to those certain pictures which you named. I am not saying that you are wrong, but want you to reconsider the names of the few pictures if you can't prove that Shaan is wrong.
I know you don't have to answer each and every question from the comments, but I thought these are some serious questions that need your response as they are suggesting that you are trying to argue your point with false evidences.
About the Phallic lingam, I found the views in the following article interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam
Yes there is nudity in Hindu Sculptures. At that time Hindus were not wearing clothes as we wear now. Ravivarma painted he painted saraswathi with bordered Saree, based on the fashion in his time. Does he had a passport picture of Saraswathi from heaven as model to paint it? If we live in a era of "no clothes" no one would have objection to the paintings. After all Indian women and men started to cover their body after the invasion of mughals and english. When you do things with reference to your present culture, you don't face any problem. Being the biggest democratic country, why are we not accepting the majority people's wish. Politicians, actors, religious people are criticised by all sects of people, when it comes to artist we try to say common man does not understand the paintings and so he cant have Opinion on it. Is it not ridiculous ?
ReplyDeleteHi sujai,
ReplyDeletewhere are you dear..come on, Answer to shashi's questions. Seems that your socalled secular bubble blowned.
you said, it is MF hussains choice to draw only hindus (goddess or gods) nude. This is called selective liberalism isn't it dear? And this selective liberalism or expression not at all secularism or liberalism.
And where are you when mahammad cartoon in danish paper critisixed by many? why you didn't wrote an article to oppose this, and support the freedom of expression of that artist? Agains selective critisism.
So you are a selective critic, selective liberal, shows secularism slelectively, answer the questions selectively. Nice. Now people know what you are upto, and what your liberalism up to.
I am going to blog all these and going to expose the selective liberals like you.
for now bye.
@sujai,
ReplyDeleteif sumeone abuses ur mother in filthy language, will u bash him up black and blue or "respect his right to criticize"
Intolerant Indians,
ReplyDeleteI am surprised the kind of strong reactions the paintings of fictional characters has brought out in so many educated people..
Indian men seem to have more attachment to non members of their families and insensitive to real women in their lives...
Isnt it women who should raise their voice if they are feeling offended with such representations??
Why are you people burning blood about something that does not even concern you,ll????
Shouldnt we concentrate more on the real issues of our times instead of running behind imaginary ones created by politicians????
Women dont have problems with half mad old artists.They have problems with real people..
Real issues like the dowry system,femaleinfanticide,
molestation,education,discrimination,eveteasing and many more.....................
Stop your rants about the old man and do something beneficial for the women in your lives.....
He did leave us for good,didnt he??
Looks like we Indians need to go back in time and learn some religious and artistic tolerance from our fore fathers....
Just curious,
Is there anyone who belongs to the Sita Sena,here????????????????????
//Is there anyone who belongs to the Sita Sena,here???????????????????? //
ReplyDeleteAre you Muslim? Christian? or any other non Hindu?
@ anonymous above,
ReplyDeleteI am a Hindu.
And for your information the Sita sena was formed in retaliation to the RamSena,s activities in the name of so called traditions.
The Sita Sena did things to counter the actions of the modern day scoundrel called Muthalik.....
Any thing else???????????????????
//Any thing else??????????????????? //
ReplyDeleteI wrongly read your previous comment as you are asking for 'shiva sena'. Sorry about that....
@l dyapa
ReplyDeleteYour rantings are not related to the topic under discussion here. The topic we are discussing is not whether women feel offended or not but whether Hussain has the right to offend the feelings of Hindus. Everybody here knows that women in Indian society face many problems but it is not related to the discussion going on here. Yes everybody knows Hussain has left for good, but this discussion is more about the extent to which freedom of expression can be permitted and whether there should tradeoff between freedom of expression and religious/cultural sensitivities.
@ Shaan,
ReplyDeleteThe discussion in here is about hurting religious sentiments of the people you say...
Fine...
But it still is about a fictional or imaginary person who does NOT exist.
It is about the potrayal of a woman,right..
When as a gender women are abused so shamelessly by people all around how many of you,ll have come forward to support them.
I am not saying this only for the sake of this discussion,but strongly feel about it too...
So much noise has been created against just lifeless paintings,
it is surprising that we give real issues a total miss.
Artists as a group are a sensitive lot.They express themselves in ways which might not be quite simple for common people to comprehend.
This issue was blown out of proportion by the Bajrang dal and its allied activists for their own ends.
The politicising of it has brought out mob fury in the public,as was planned.
How come we fall prey to these kind of selective politics always!!!
When artists cannot express themselves even in the privacy of their own studio,s and galleries,I wonder what kind of a right is freedom of expression !!!!
The fact remains that Indian art is world renowned but their artists obscure....
If our culture has taught us about Lord Ram,who we say is the epitome of virtue, it has also taught us of the romances of Lord Krishna and his encounters with the gopika,s in a different avatar.
Selective criticism is a modern day curse...
If people are so concerned about freedom of expression and artcle 19and such,take constitutional action against the said person,who stopped them???
I only hear about Bajrang dal,s or the Ram Sena,s irresponsible and shameful acts of beating up and threatening women,burning film posters,destroying valentines day programmes and such good for nothing deeds but never about doing anything constructive for the public.
Do you support Bajrang dal,Ram Sena and the others for their actions????
Are you not supporting unconstitutional measures to constitutional problems???????
Did YOU ever hear about any development activities from these so called saviours of Indian culture????
Again,
It takes a certain level of tolerance and maturity to understand some works of art..
I personally know several people who have studied fine arts,and most or all of them totally disapprove these kind of political actions.
Freedom of expression is the most abused constitutional right....
Shaan,
ReplyDeleteI should say you have really collected exceptional information about this. But you cannot in any way deny that Indian history tolerated nudity in gods and goddesses.
And that is the answer for most of the questions you did actually put forth? May be Sujai's examples are not a perfect fit but it is true t hat in Indian Past gods and goddesses were depicted nude.
Except Islam that strictly prohibits any kind of imagination of god in earthly figures as sin, most religions have a glorious past of depicting gods and goddesses in nude and in erotic postures.
If Krishna and Radha can be depicted in a most erotic way in writings what is wrong with art?
And this did not happen in the past but in the very recent history. Andhra CM prakasham pantulu had actually unbanned the telugu scripture Radhika Santwanam by Mudupalani.
I do not see any differences between Telugu movies that depict the gods and goddesses in erotic angle angle and MFH picturizing it erotically.
Either both should be shunned or banned. But madly going after the artist does not make sense at all.
@l dyapa,
ReplyDeleteAgain, this discussion is not about portrayal of woman. This is about the portrayal of Hindu religious symbols including Gods, Goddesses and Hindu people. If you see the pictures in the article you will understand. You have your right to opinion about freedom of expression like all others who have commented here. I am only asking you not to camouflage your real opinion under the smoke of women's rights, Valentine's day, etc. Express your opinion freely without taking the discussion offtrack. Of course I don't support the Ram Sena, etc and I have written against their goondaism many times. And I am not supporting/promoting unconstitutional activities against Hussain. I am only saying that people have the legal right to sue him just like Hussain has the right to freedom of expression.
@Shaan,
ReplyDeleteThen lets start suing all the temples,starting from the local ones.
Are you going to do that???
I have,nt come across a single temple which does not have sculptures or paintings in exotic postures.
When shall we start???
@ Shaan,
ReplyDeleteMy friend I am speaking of the constitution and you are going on and on about the Hindu culture.
India is NOT a Hindu country.
It is democratic.
We cannot make exceptions for majorities.
The article is questioning about the selective intolerance of Indians.
Either ban all the temples from displaying such works along with MF
or leave them both alone.
If we do ban them I think we must delete the word secular from the constitution.
Let,s forward a petition,then.
When do we start?????
cont...
ReplyDeleteYou are offended by the depiction in the paintings and I am by the insensitivities in real life.
What appears crime to you appears art to me.
You say religion,and I say fanaticism.
They are the two sides of the same coin.
So,which one is true??
All I am saying is,let,s not drag religion into art.
MFH was issued a fatwa for some of his works earlier by some muslim fundamentalists.
His work was not for or against any religion.
Shaan:
ReplyDeleteI am only saying that people have the legal right to sue him just like Hussain has the right to freedom of expression.
You don’t get it.
There is a difference between the state harassing a person and the mobs harassing a person. People have a right to sue, but the state has a duty to protect the person from harassment. When the state indulgences in the harassment then we have big problem. With MF Husain the state has indulged in harassment while consciously allowing people to harass him.
Also, how do you think we can frame a law which says a Hindu artisan can work on a nude painting of a Hindu goddess but not a Muslim artisan?
Shaan:
ReplyDeletewhether Hussain has the right to offend the feelings of Hindus
Yes.
Because there is no limit to what can offend a person of a religion as seen from examples of the past. Unless there is a law that clearly says here are the 10 things you cannot do to offend a person of a religion, we cannot make such offense a crime.
When you go about framing the law, that portraying a hindu goddess in nude is an offense, please make sure you destroy all out temple like Taliban destroyed Bamiyan.
Several sculptures and paintings of male gods are found every where in our country.
ReplyDeleteSo do I then cry indecent representation??????
Shall we break down all the sculptures of nude gods and pull down all the paintings one by one.
Fact is we Indians are intolerant about matters pertaining to women.
We have always mixed religion with the female behaviour for ages.
If MFH had painted Ram or Krishna or Shiva(which I am sure,he might have)we wouldnt have made so much of a scene.
It is only because he did so of a female deity,that he was targetted.
If it was of any other god,it would have been alright.
My stand here is...
How would we even have known about it if the Bajrang Dal had not done these things??????
Isnt this politics?????
How then can you say that this is only about religion????
Isnt it about women???
Isnt it about politics???
I will not support mindless and fanatic harrasment of a living man for a NON living deity...
Do not put forward silly arguments saying I am talking of women,s rights representations and such.
Do not jump arguments..
You just turned an artist,s interpretation into a religious propaganda.
Do not make religion your topic for coffee table discussion.
I appreciate your knowledge about our religion,but I condemn your stand on it......
Grow some artistic and religious tolerance..........
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnd paintings and sculptures are not the only pieces of art.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the movies, dramas, tv soaps and importantly poetry and literature??
In telugu, right from annamayya to Khsetrayya, every one has resorted to eroticism involving gods and goddesses one time or the other.
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteBecause there is no limit to what can offend a person of a religion as seen from examples of the past.
But according to our constitution we actually have restrictions on freedom of expression.
And MFH's painting may be actually prevented from exhibition by the court of law.
But according to our constitution we actually have restrictions on freedom of expression.
ReplyDeleteWhat are those restrictions? Where are they written? Who creates those restrictions?
What about the legal precedents which seem to tell us what those restrictions are? Is government entitled to impose those restrictions or is it the judiciary?
Also, do we assume that everything is restricted and then go about making it free case by case basis?
Or do we assume that everything is free and then go about making it restricted with extreme caution?
@Sravan,
ReplyDeleteThat is the main problem.
If people had a problem with his works they could go to court with it,sued him and get him punished if found guilty....
Better still,not attend or boycott all his future exhibitions.
I wouldnt have had a problem if they had done,so.
The Bajrang Dal purposely created all the drama to gain political mileage.
They ransacked his house,attacked him,destroyed his properties selectively,damaged his art galleries,threatened his family and put up cases against him.
Now,where in the world should people get away doing such things in the name of religion????
If all the artists are threatened like this???
It would not only be the end of art in India but would also encourage several others to do similar attacks on other artists in the name of religious offence.
Taslima was attacked in Hyderabad sometime ago.
Shahrukh during MNIK,
MFH now....
Who gives them the right to do this to another citizen???
Any alternate views are abused without understanding the deeper implications of these actions.
It just opened up the pandora,s box....
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteOfcourse the restrictions are very vaguely described as clauses attached to the articles and may sometimes be erratically implemented. However the govt. has to exercise its discretionary powers with caution.
And it would be in the interest of all that they should be implemented in a way not forgoing the fundamental rights of people.
There is a dire need to actually make our constitution more descriptive in several terms.
Infact there have been several cases in the past where our judiciary has actually restricted the media to publish reports to safeguard the fundamental rights of the alleged and defendents.
In connection to the above, I would like to cite the famous Nanawati case of 1960's. Due to excess coverage by the media the high court had to ban the press. And more over the court had actually stopped the jury system as it felt that the jury passed verdict influenced by the media reports. The case was legendary as it led to abolishing the jury system in India.
ReplyDeleteWell.... the court could have actually put restrictions on MFH paintings I still think that was silly because it was quite clear that the paintings were decades old and no one bothered about them until recently and so suddenly.
Sravan:
ReplyDeleteI asked the questions for a particular reason.
If there are indeed restrictions against painting nude gods and goddesses, I would like to see a precedent.
Because I see nude gods and goddesses everywhere being made even now, not in the remote past, by many artisans.
If there is indeed a legal restriction on nude gods and goddesses, then I would like to see all these temples closed down - because what is the difference in seeing a nude sculpture in a temple or in a museum?
If there is a restriction against creating gods and goddesses in nude only in the present times, I would like to know what date separates the past from present. If so, why are there so many nude goddesses coming out even in the present times?
Thanks.
This is clearly Kutharka argument ignoring what he has painted. Very bluntly want to support Hussain? Only Hindus and Hindu gods are to be painted nude?
ReplyDeleteHis controversial paintings are listed below:
1. Goddess Durga in sexual union with a Tiger
2.Prophet's daughter Fatima fully clothed
3.Goddess Lakshmi naked on Sree Ganesh's head
4.M.F. Husain's mother fully clothed
5.Naked Saraswati
6.Mother Teresa fully clothed
7.Naked Sree Parvati
8.Husain's daughter well clothed
9.Naked Draupadi.
10.Well clothed Muslim Lady.
11.Naked Lord Hanuman and Goddess Sita sitting on the thigh of Ravana
12.Muslim poets Faiz are Galib are shown well-clothed
13.Fully clad Muslim King and a naked Hindu Brahmin. This painting clearly indicates Husain's tendency to paint a Hindu in the nude and thus openly expose his hatred for Hindus.
14.Naked Bharatmata - Husain has shown a naked woman with names of states written on different parts of her body. He has used the Ashok Chakra of the Tri-colour in the painting. By doing this he has violated the law & hurt the National Pride of Indians. Both these things should be of grave concern to every Indian irrespective of his religion.
15.Out of the four leaders, M. Gandhi is decapitated and Hitler is naked. Husain hates Hitler and has said in an interview 8 years ago that he depicted Hitler naked so as to humiliate him as he deserves it ! How come Hitler's nudity caused humiliation when in Husain's own statement nudity in art depicts purity and is in fact an honour ! This shows Husain's hypocrisy and perversion.
Does Anyone have justification for his Hypocrisy and perversion.
If someone talks a negative happening about a muslim or christian then he is seen as a non-secular person. Is this fate for an average HINDU in India.
Ok, guys. I understand you will stick you your position and I will stick to my position. I see no point in continuing. I would like to say only one thing - Hussain may have the right to freedom of expression, but anybody (whether it is a person or a mob or a group) has the right to approach courts if they feel he has gone over limit. He can defend himself in courts as he has done in some cases. I don't support physical violence, but legally it is anybody's right to sue him and legally he can defend him. But it was he who chose to run from the country.
ReplyDeleteMalarChelvan NK:
ReplyDeleteVery bluntly want to support Hussain?
No. Very bluntly want to support Freedom of Expression.
Only Hindus and Hindu gods are to be painted nude?
Well, do you see any other gods and goddesses in nude in temples/churches anywhere? Hinduism has a rich tradition of showing their gods and goddesses in nude and in erotic descriptions.
1. Goddess Durga in sexual union with a Tiger
Is Durga male or female? She is standing behind the Tiger/Lion, so how come a female standing behind a male/animal be considered sexual union?
3.Goddess Lakshmi naked on Sree Ganesh's head
Would you be OK if Lakshmi is naked but standing next to Ganesha?
5.Naked Saraswati
Saraswati is seen naked in many sculptures not just in MF Husain’s paintings.
7.Naked Sree Parvati
She is sitting naked on Shiva in Ellora.
He has used the Ashok Chakra of the Tri-colour in the painting. By doing this he has violated the law
Which law? Last time I heard you are free to use the tricolor flag in any painting.
Husain hates Hitler and has said in an interview 8 years ago that he depicted Hitler naked so as to humiliate him as he deserves it !
I have asked numerous times on this blog. Please show me the proof of that statement from MF Husain. Nobody has come forward as yet.
Does Anyone have justification for his Hypocrisy and perversion.
Perversion in Art is in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t find his art an act of perversion, but you do. It shows a lot about the viewer than MF Husain.
No. Very bluntly want to support Freedom of Expression.
ReplyDelete- Does that mean it can hurt anybody's feeling, may it be majority or minority? Can a hindu painter paint something wierd and name is as in the name of any other religious god /saint and claim his FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ?
Well, do you see any other gods and goddesses in nude in temples/churches anywhere? Hinduism has a rich tradition of showing their gods and goddesses in nude and in erotic descriptions.
- No dress or less dress was wore 1000 years back (from our history), will it be right for anybody to walk in busy street with the same dress code now. We Indians happen to wear present style of dress after the English came to India and wore full dress after the mughals invasion. Lets not forget culture and tradition have changed in times.
Is Durga male or female? She is standing behind the Tiger/Lion, so how come a female standing behind a male/animal be considered sexual union?
- If Durga copulating with a Tiger / Lion is acceptable, then will he dare to paint a picture with caption Fathima enjoying with the animals ? Nudity in the picture is not criticised, only the "caption" saying Durga with Tiger/Lion hurts. Nobody says painter should not paint nudity, the caption matters. Is Durga Female or Male - this not the issue here, Union of nude durga with animals is the issue.
Would you be OK if Lakshmi is naked but standing next to Ganesha?
- This is Kutharka argument. What is the need for ganesha to be with Lakshmi nude? The beleif is Lakshmi is aunt of Ganesha, does it not sounding ridiculous to argue in this way?
Saraswati is seen naked in many sculptures not just in MF Husain’s paintings.
- Yes ofcourse seen in sculptures in temples that were made centuries ago with par to the then culture/tradition. Not seen in anyone's painting painted in present days.
She is sitting naked on Shiva in Ellora.
- Again Ellora was painted many centuries back. If you do things with reference to the present culture/tradition you cannot be criticized.
Which law? Last time I heard you are free to use the tricolor flag in any painting.
- Painting tricolor is not the issue, nude woman captioned as Bharatmata is the issue.
I have asked numerous times on this blog. Please show me the proof of that statement from MF Husain. Nobody has come forward as yet.
- Honestly I dont have it, If I happened to find out I will forward it to you, I have to appologise if I had written a false statement.
Perversion in Art is in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t find his art an act of perversion, but you do. It shows a lot about the viewer than MF Husain.
- Art is entertainment, reflection of current days life. Not to divide the society or to hurt the sentiments of a section of people. Art / Sport should appease everybody and was so in the past and now ?
This is question that arises because of Hussain's painting.
MalarChelvan NK:
ReplyDeleteDoes that mean it can hurt anybody's feeling, may it be majority or minority?
Yes. Hurting feelings of a group is an extremely subjective topic. Any group can claim that they are hurt each time a rocket is launched into space. Do we stop launching rockets to accommodate such feelings?
Can a hindu painter paint something wierd and name is as in the name of any other religious god /saint and claim his FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
[Though I didn’t understand the above text completely – I am assuming that this is what you wrote – “Can a Hindu artist paint something weird and call it any religious god/saint and claim his Freedom of Expression?”]
Yes.
Painting tricolor is not the issue, nude woman captioned as Bharatmata is the issue
ReplyDeleteIs it ok to say that
"Bharath Mata is being raped"
I heard this dialogue in contemporary telugu movies zillion times.
Is it not hurting the sentiments ?
Art is entertainment, reflection of current days life
ReplyDeleteWell what has Hitler and Gandhi to do with current days entertainment.
I look the painting in a different perspective. It is probably regarding how MFH felt about Gandhi's statement on persecution of Jews.
and you might be looking in a different perspective and hurting your sentiments.
Well, I do respect your freedom to form your opinion. But is it not wise to make discussions in such matters.
Infact the paintings in question are actually more than 2 decades old.
//they are hurt each time a rocket is launched into space. Do we stop launching rockets to accommodate such feelings?//
ReplyDeleteMay be, it depends on the outcome of the situation.
For example. no one liked when some one said earth is not flat, it is round. But knowing the earth is round helped people in many ways.
Same way Rockets will help human.
Hussain paintings will not help anyone in any way except Hussain.
We can not make laws for everything, few situations depends on there common sense. For example in telugu moive 'Pokiri', Software engineer Brahmi was constantly harassed by beggars and by law he can not do anything about it.
Damodhar:
ReplyDeleteSame way Rockets will help human. Hussain paintings will not help anyone in any way except Hussain.
How do you know which idea will help humans and which one will not? Copernicus’s ideas on Universe were considered heretical. When Galileo proposed that Earth moves he was put to death. His ideas were considered inimical to human beings in the greater good. The pope of that time felt he did the right thing by suppressing the voice of Galileo – he thought his would bring anarchy if people did not believe in religion anymore.
In the recent past, Hindus in India opposed dredging of Sethusamudram because they thought it was built by monkeys of Rama. The debate was not about ecological effects of such dredging, it was about whether Rama existed and actually built a bridge use army of monkeys or not.
Ideas come in all forms, art, science, philosophy, all of them brought about revolutionary ideas. Great artists are remembered along with philosophers, scientists, philosophers and writers to have brought Age of Enlightenment that eventually freed man from being subject of a king to make him a citizen with rights.
All ideas when heard first time sound heretical, and yet, the greatness of modern nations is that they tolerate all such ideas without suppressing any of them, and leave it to people to be judge of whether they want to promote or embrace that idea or reject it. Rejecting the idea does not mean suppressing the voice of the author, the painter, or the orator.
Hinduism has a great tradition of allowing artists to paint their objects of reverence in nude. There is no reason why should snub it. There are thousands of temples in India where there are goddesses in nude. Should we not go about destroying them?
//How do you know which idea will help humans and which one will not? //
ReplyDeleteBecause there will be always debate of such things. There are many fears and a section of people opposed the Big Bang experiment few months back, but many believed it is worth trying. If majority do not approve, then I am sure they would have stopped that experiment.
I do not see many who supporting Hussain.
//it was about whether Rama existed and actually built a bridge use army of monkeys or not. //
Do you approve printing Raama's pics on footware because we can scientifically prove that Raama doesn't exists? You must know where to use your 'Rights/freedom' and where not.
//There are thousands of temples in India where there are goddesses in nude. Should we not go about destroying them? //
Again, I will leave it to your sense. There is lots of difference between 'Some one caught me and other lady naked in two different rooms' and 'the same guy caught me naked along with that girl in same room (who is not my girlfriend or wife)'. Atleast it is not appropriate in current society(could be okey in the future). I am not saying painting Seeta naked is wrong, but it makes lots of difference painting naked Seeta on Ravana's thigh. You put god in your home in some holy place, but not in toilet (there is no law to prevent this). You should know which is appropriate and which is not.
Every one should change there way of life by the time. If some one did something long back, it doesn't mean you can do the same again in this generations. For example, as per the Bible, Adam's son slept with his sisters, which is considered a sin after there generations. No one should follow that in current generations.