This discussion took place many years ago. I was living in USA then. A German girl who had recently moved to US said, ‘If you don’t like this country then you should just leave this country’, as a part of the ongoing debate where many international people were discussing the US foreign policies. The person to whom this was directed at said, ‘I don’t think you need to love the country you live in’.
What followed next was my own investigation into this. As a young boy, I always thought I was patriotic. Even now, when the national anthem is sung, I go very sentimental. It never fails to move me. In reality it reminds me of my childhood. I realize that it is nothing to do with a song or to do with patriotism. I had the same emotions running through me when I watched Taare Zamee Par. I think most of us love our homelands. It is more to do with nostalgia than anything else.
But does that mean I should love my country to be living in a country? Can I not love my country and still live in that country? These are interesting but serious questions because this is one of the reasons cited by many Hindus of Hyderabad to discredit the Muslims of Hyderabad, stating that some of Muslims of Hyderabad support Pakistan during a cricket match. They ask why these Muslims do not go to Pakistan since they love it so much.
Is it a prerequisite to love a country to live in that country? Should this love be tested?
I ask myself, am I patriotic? When I was a kid I didn’t have these questions. I always believed I was an ardent patriot. There was something glorious in supporting one’s nations and defending it against all its enemies. Those enemies were everywhere. Every foreign nation that invaded us or intended to invade us, all those people who looked down upon us calling a ‘third world’ country, all those who put USA and UK stickers on their motorbikes. There were many enemies living within who constantly cited ills in this nation- they constantly criticized this nation.
But then I grew into a boy and then into an adult. One of the sad outcomes of that growth is that there is a good chance that you mature up, start seeing things in a broader perspective. I started assuming that everyone around me outgrew the childish notions. I thought by now, everyone around me, the people of my age and older, had outgrown the belief in Santa Claus. To my amusement and to eventual dismay, I realized that most adults around me continued to believe in Santa Claus. They stopped learning and growing long ago and they don’t even realize that. What more, they were even ready to die and kill to defend their Santa Claus against all detractors. To say ‘Santa Claus doesn’t exist’ has become a traitorous act.
I realized that I was not a patriot in the ‘conventional’ sense as defined by most of my fellow Indians. I did not accept everything my country did was right. I was rea
What does it mean to criticize a country, berate it, talk ill of it? Why is burning one’s flag punishable by death? Why so much hullabaloo when someone doesn’t sing a National Anthem or when someone keeps their foot next to a flag in a picture, or when someone floats it upside down by accident?
Why should Muslims be forced into singing Vande Mataram? Why can’t people fight for a separate state? Why is it important to support India’s military action in Kashmir? What is so patriotic about all these things?
Why don’t I have a choice to sing or not sing Vande Mataram? Why can’t I criticize my nation’s military action on its own people? Why can’t I defend someone in the court of law even if he is an alleged terrorist?
Who are you to tell me that I am unpatriotic Indian? Who are you to tell me that I should leave this country? Did you take test on patriotism? Who decides what patriotism is?
A nation has certain duties towards its citizens whether those citizens like, love, hate or abhor that nation. No preferential treatment should be given to those who love the nation more than the other. No discrimination can be meted out to those who have expressed hatred, anger, or downright ill for the nation.
This nation is not built for housing patriots. And there is no prerequisite to be a patriot to live in this nation.
"No preferential treatment should be given to those who love the nation more than the other. No discrimination can be meted out to those who have expressed hatred, anger, or downright ill for the nation."
ReplyDeleteWhy not?
Do you give the same treatment to those who love you as to those who hate you?
Every relationship is based on reciprocity and I do not see any reason why it should not.
Criticizing is not the same as hating. I may criticize my kids so that they improve in future. I may also criticize my enemies so that they feel humiliated. Ignore this difference and you will never find an answer.
"These are interesting but serious questions because this is one of the reasons cited by many Hindus of Hyderabad to discredit the Muslims of Hyderabad, stating that some of Muslims of Hyderabad support Pakistan during a cricket match."
ReplyDeleteWhat's the *intention* behind some Muslims supporting Pakistan, or cheering Pakistan's win over India in cricket?
-chirkut
Sujai: How would you deal with someone who worked in your company, but cheered the success of your competitors?
ReplyDelete-Abhishek
Abhishek:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the question.
A nation is not the same as a company in many respects.
For example, when an employee does not perform to the expectations you can remove him from the company. No matter how a citizen underperforms, he is never removed from a nation.
When an employee is old or incapacitated, he can be compensated for and then removed from a company. No matter how incapacitated or old a citizen is, he is never removed from a nation.
I could have answered your question in a different way. I used the above two examples to suggest that loyalties and such other feelings do not work the same way for a company and a nation.
A nation may not have certain mandates the way a company has and vice-versa.
Anonymous @ comment #1:
ReplyDeleteLove is not a term in legal parlance that can be quantified by a state in meting out sops, incentives, rights, and privileges.
In the same way, patriotism is not a legal word for retaining or expelling a citizen.
We do not reserve seats, give admission to institutes, hire an officer measuring his patriotic quotient.
Any any foolish move in that direction should be stopped before we make this an idiotic nation.
As an individual you can have preferential treatment to those you love, but as a nation it cannot discriminate between individuals when doling out rights, opportunities and privileges based on measure of love.
Sujai, I might agree with you on some points. But if we discount patriotism as a pre-requisite to being a citizen and enjoying the advantages thereof, should we discount loyalty to the nation as well?
ReplyDelete"Any any foolish move in that direction should be stopped before we make this an idiotic nation."
ReplyDeleteI do not see anything idiotic in this except that you have chosen to label it so.
"As an individual you can have preferential treatment to those you love, but as a nation it cannot discriminate between individuals when doling out rights, opportunities and privileges based on measure of love."
Repeating something does not make it an argument. You have still not answered - why not?
Hi
ReplyDeletePatrotism:
I think government have no to measure the patriotism.Even defence services look for criminal records only but not any patritic records.If you have any information on preferntial tretments for patroits please share in the blog
Love Pakisthani cricket:
In my openion this is like marrying one and sleeping with others.I do not understand how any one can support a country which attacked india four times,trains terrorists to kill friends and relatives.pakisthan has a declard policy of bleeding india by thousand cuts.This is not specific to Hyderabad,there are many muslims through out country who shut off their tvs when india is winning.
Hullabaloo:
Because Vandemataram was such a mantra during the freedom movement.People sacifised their lives,lathicharged,jailed for saying these words.
Also remember how the terrorists killed the ten year old boy inside the Akshardham temple.They caught him,asked to say vandematharam at gun point and fired bullet into his mouth for saying it.
Supporting country;
No,one can always have thier openion.As you said these are like Assholes.
Why govt is not hanging the terrorist who attacked the parliment even after high courts judgement?One can demand govt to take action?
Why the government allows certain politicians who support the banned organisations like SIMI,even after the clear links of SIMI with terrorists is proved?
One can ask these basterds to be sacked.
Housing patriots:
Why we house terrorists and haters?
The borders are wide open not only to Pakisthan,they are open to Afganisthan,Iran and Iraq.Payments are good for terrorists(I heard the recrutment bonus is five lakhs,can some one confirm?)
Of course you need not be patritoic to live in a country. Patriotism is a hog wash.
ReplyDeleteIn the same tone, Why cant I hate people? Why cant I kill people? Why should I take care of my parents? Why should I not cheat my brother? Who says killing and cheating are wrongs? Nations, Nationalism, Taxes, law and order is a scam.
Do you need to love the person you are married to?
ReplyDeleteNo matter how a citizen underperforms, he is never removed from a nation.
ReplyDeleteHe might be put in jail.
Sagarone:
ReplyDeleteshould we discount loyalty to the nation as well?
Defining loyalty is subjective. I don't it should be legalized.
There are enough laws to take care of people who bring harm to a nation.
Holding hatred, which is a feeling, should not criminalized.
Yamuna:
ReplyDeleteIn the same tone, Why cant I hate people?
You have every right to hate people. Hate is a feeling that you harbor within you. You are entitled to hold any thought or feeling whatsoever.
Why cant I kill people?
You don't have a right to kill people. Killing people involves depriving other people of their right to live.
Having a right to live does not include a right to deprive others of their right to live.
Since you infringe upon other's rights when you kill someone, you could be put in jail if convicted.
Why should I take care of my parents?
Its up to you whether you want to take care of your parents or not. As yet, such a duty is not legalized. You are free to abandon your parents and not take care of them. State will NOT prosecute you if you do not take care of your parents.
Why should I not cheat my brother?
If cheating your brother involves infringement of certain legal duties, then you can be prosecuted.
If you have eaten his cupcake while he is looking the other way, and if he cannot prove that cup cake legally belonged to him, then your cheating can go unpunished by the state.
However, if you usurp your brother's property which legally belongs to him, then he can take you to court and if proven guilty, you have to undergo the punishment.
Who says killing and cheating are wrongs?
Killing a human being is declared as an infringement of right to live others enjoy and hence is punishable as a crime.
Cheating comes in various forms, some cheatings are legally punished, others are not.
Nations, Nationalism, Taxes, law and order is a scam.
You are entitled to your opinion. But NOT paying taxes is punishable by law.
These are interesting but serious questions because this is one of the reasons cited by many Hindus of Hyderabad to discredit the Muslims of Hyderabad, stating that some of Muslims of Hyderabad support Pakistan during a cricket match."
ReplyDeleteWell its anybody's wish to support whatever country they want.
There are many INDIAN origins who are residing in U. K , Australia etc and support our Indian cricket team whenever they play there. That doesn't meant they are traitors or they should be expelled from that country.
Sujai said:
ReplyDeleteDefining loyalty is subjective. I don't it should be legalized.
I think a more accurate characterizatio is that there is a core of objectivity to the concept of loyalty and a penumbra of subjectivity to it.
I think people go to great lengths to over-subjectivize virtues
today.
~ Vinod
"Why should I not cheat my brother?
ReplyDeleteIf cheating your brother involves infringement of certain legal duties, then you can be prosecuted."
So? If showing patriotism is also made a legal duty, then what's your issue?
If showing patriotism is also made a legal duty, then what's your issue?
ReplyDeleteRead the premise of this discussion.
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteI love the way you unlearn certain societal brainwashy concepts and share them!! You inspire me!!
I wanted to respond to comments. But your response was much better. Anyway, I guess I can share a perspective,
"No preferential treatment should be given to those who love the nation more than the other. No discrimination can be meted out to those who have expressed hatred, anger, or downright ill for the nation." Why not?
As an individual, Quantification of 'Love' and 'Hatred' is relatively easy and less complicated and; that is also at best approximate and constantly changing. As a kid, we used to hate another kid because we had slightest of misunderstandings (like in a cricket match). But after growing up, our scale for hating/loving some one has changed/broadened. Plus, it is different for different individuals.
To have a same thing for a nation is too difficult for one too many reasons, that it is not possible and hence it is not there in the legal system.
"Any foolish move in that direction should be stopped before we make this an idiotic nation."
I do not see anything idiotic in this except that you have chosen to label it so.
That kind of move is foolish because it comes from a very narrow/ill-educated mindset.
Sujai, I might agree with you on some points. But if we discount patriotism as a pre-requisite to being a citizen and enjoying the advantages thereof, should we discount loyalty to the nation as well?
Again, there is no measure to quantify loyalty either. Plus, it can be/and is easily faked.
Love Pakisthani cricket:
In my openion this is like marrying one and sleeping with others.I do not understand how any one can support a country which attacked india four times,trains terrorists to kill friends and relatives.pakisthan has a declard policy of bleeding india by thousand cuts.This is not specific to Hyderabad,there are many muslims through out country who shut off their tvs when india is winning
I share your dislike towards war in general. No one should be killed because the ideas are different from others. But, Notice that Pakistan’s cricket team is not Pakistan’s army.
Being fan of some other country’s cricket is not necessarily cheating or acting out of integrity.
Also, in your example, marrying one and sleeping with other does not only come under the definition of cheating or infidelity. It also comes under a definition of “Open Marriage”
“No matter how a citizen underperforms, he is never removed from a nation.”
He might be put in jail.
Jail is for people who do things that are against the Legal system. You can’t just put a person in jail for following reasons:
1. Because majority of population feels so.
2. Because the person thinks present society is not rigid or it does not cater a place for people with different belief systems to live in peace and respect for one other.
3. Because the person thinks some other society is more favorable towards the individuals in it. (Just because of this, he cant be removed and thrown into that society. That would be barbaric).
4. Because the person holds different belief system than others
5. Because he expresses his feeling which doesn’t physically harm others.
6. and so on…
- Sansrid
Yamuna said:
ReplyDelete"If showing patriotism is also made a legal duty, then what's your issue?"
Sujai replied:
"Read the premise of this discussion."
I thought you were capable of understanding an argument. It seems you are more interested in creating confusion by using circular sophistry.
Let me be more explicit. You said that you were opposed to cheating because it was against the law. However, laws are not revealed to any prophet. Laws are man made. If law is the essence of being right or wrong, then laws can always be changed.
You are opposed to cheating on legal grounds. You are not making a moral argument against cheating, are you? Then why are you shifting gears in the present case under discussion? If it is the law then follow it. If it is not, then don't.
- Yamuna
Yamuna:
ReplyDeleteYou said:
You said that you were opposed to cheating because it was against the law.
I did not say that. What I said was this:
If cheating your brother involves infringement of certain legal duties, then you can be prosecuted.
Not all cheating can be prosecuted- only that cheating that involved infringement of certain laws.
Here I was not talking about emotional cheating. I was talking about cheating like - usurping one's property.
I also say (in Part II of this topic) that feelings should not be mandated.
I do not support legalizing emotional feelings, such as patriotism.
In Part II (on this blog), I write:
A modern nation has to distance itself from such emotive measures, such measures of anger, one’s measure of loyalties, one’s measure of love or hate. They are subjective, personal, and completely invalid parameters to mete out the duties of a state towards its citizens.
I am opposed to legalizing patriotism or loyalty - because they are feelings - and very subjective.
Perfect sujai. i agree with your views.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, most of the people think the other way around.
For them, patriotism is a feeling one should imbibe in oneself right from the birth. They dont understand that one can criticize ones own country and still love or hate it as per ones own perspective.
To tell those people to leave the country, like the way the BJPs and Hindutwa people tell other community is nothing short of a fascist mind set-up, for which there is no cure, except developing ones own common sense.
A request. Can i translate these two parts of the article and put it in my blog http://rajeevechelanat.blogspot.com
Due credit would be mentioned alongwith the link of your blog.
Please do reply to rajeeve.chelanat@gmail.com
Sujai,
ReplyDeleteExcellent. Patriotism is one of those Pseudo-emotions.
@ indian cricket fans,
The team you call Indian cricket team is just a club team and that club's name is BCCI. BCCI is not a govt body and Their cricket team is not indian national team.