Thursday, August 05, 2010

Let go, India


Kashmir is not simmering anymore.  It is boiling and spilling over.  In the last two months 40 people were killed by Indian security forces.  These are young boys of Kashmir, less than 20 years of age, some of them as young as 8 years, and they are challenging the might of Indian armed forces by coming out onto streets violating the curfew orders imposed onto them. Look at the news headlines from THE HINDU in the last 4 days.


The new generation of Kashmiri David takes on the Goliath machinery of India.  These young boys risk their lives to defy all the restrictions imposed on them by Indian security forces.  India is at a loss.  It does not know how to deal with this situation.  There are no AK-47s, there are no hand grenades or rocket launchers so that India can claim these protestors are terrorists.  All these young boys have is bunch of easily available stones to take on the sophisticated Indian armed forces. 

Indians don’t know how to respond to this outcry from Kashmir Valley.  Indians are still contemplating half measures.  They talk of development, better political representation, tackling corruption and so on.  These Indians still believe that we can turn this around.  They believe that that these young Kashmiris will one day embrace India and love this country as we do.

There comes a time in the political histories where there is no turning back.  Kashmiri youth have crossed that Rubicon.  They don’t want to turn back.  That’s why they throw themselves against the Indian armed forced and are ready to die.  When freedom is more important to them than their precious lives, we need to concede that we are losing ground and losing our place on their lives. 

Its time India concedes that it cannot win back people who don’t want to be won back.  This happens with many political movements where the ideas have been infused so strongly amongst the population that there is no need for instigators or leaders anymore.  Siddharth Varadarajan writes in THE HINDU:

This admission has been difficult for the authorities to make because its implications are unpleasant, perhaps even frightening. In security terms, the absence of a central nervous system means the expanding body of protest cannot be controlled by arresting individual leaders. And in political terms, the spectre of leaderless revolt makes the offer of ‘dialogue' or the naming of a ‘special envoy' for Kashmir — proposals which might have made sense last year or even last month — seem completely and utterly pointless today.

Initially when Indians wanted their freedoms from the British they thought they could get them within the British Empire under the aegis of the Crown.  However, over a period of time, it became clear that they needed purna swaraj – complete independence from British.  Once that idea got matured and got instilled into the masses, it didn’t matter if Gandhi was around or Nehru around.  By then it got its own momentum.  We would have got Independence irrespective of the leaders because the idea is now grown so big that it is bigger than any leader. 

Something similar is happening in Telangana now.  Many outsiders ridicule people of Telangana for their struggle and believe that it is a fight sponsored by some political parties.  When I was describing one of the agitations to an outsider he asked how much each participant was paid.  These Indians refused to believe that people of Telangana come out of their volition to participate in the struggle just because they believe in the idea.  They don’t need incentives from leaders anymore.  The idea has become bigger than the leaders. Siddharth Varadarajan continues.

Ever since the current phase of disturbances began, intelligence officials have been wasting precious time convincing the leadership and public of India that the protests are solely or mostly the handiwork of agent provocateurs. So we have been told of the role of the Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI, of the ‘daily wage of Rs. 200' — and even narcotics — being given to stone pelters.

In the context of Kashmir, many Indians refuse to believe that the idea of azadi has now become a universal idea shared by most of Kashmiris living in the valley.  These Kashmiris don’t need incentives anymore to come out and fight to give up their lives. 

Siddharth continues:

A few weeks back, an audio recording of a supposedly incriminating telephone call was leaked to the media along with a misleading transcript suggesting the Geelani faction of the Hurriyat was behind the upsurge. Now, our TV channels have “learned” from their “sources” that the protests will continue till President Obama's visit in November.

We Indians will do everything in our capacity to discredit a genuine people’s aspirations.  We will say that the leaders are corrupt, and then say that the people participated in an agitation for the lure of 200 rupees, and that some foreign elements are involved and so on, but never admit that there could be a genuine people’s movement going on there.

One Indian, E. Krishnan of Palakkad writes:

The present unrest and continued defiance of the orders of the administration can only be termed as last ditch attempts from across the border…Only a minuscule section of the people, at the behest of the enemy, is fomenting trouble in Jammu and Kashmir. This has to be contained firmly.

So what will it take for India to admit that the majority of the people in Kashmir Valley sympathize with the protestors and that they are as committed as the protestors for their azadi from India?  When will we accept the ground realities? Should Indian security forces end up in killing and maiming everyone in the Valley to be able to say, ‘now, everyone wants to be with India’?

Siddharth Varadarajan writes:

Central to this delusional narrative of manipulated protest is the idea that the disturbances are confined to just a few pockets in the valley …

…but one of the reasons the protests spread was popular frustration over the way in which the authenticity of mass sentiment was being dismissed by the government. For the women who came on to the streets with their pots and pans and even stones, or the youths who set up spontaneous blood donation camps to help those injured in the demonstrations, this attempt to strip their protest of both legitimacy and agency was yet another provocation.

The current generation of Kashmiris is not fighting their battles with AK-47s but ordinary stones to combat the second biggest army on the planet.  One cannot help but compare it with Palestinians kids throwing stones at the oncoming Israeli tanks.

My dream of India

I am a proud Indian. Not because we are the second biggest army in the world or because we possess nuclear weapons, but because I believe that we are creating a nation based on certain lofty ideals to create a harmonious society, an equitable system, and a fair country, where people will have their freedoms and dignity no matter what.  I want my India to be mature than what it is right now so that it can deal with practical problems with practical solutions. 

Time for introspection


What has become of us Indians?  How did we end up being an imperialist and a colonizer?  When did we turn from being a champion of freedoms to suppressor of freedoms?  What happened to those lofty goals that we preached when we got our freedoms?  In Kashmir, people are dying every day. Our hands are bloody.  We are killing innocent people.  For what? To satisfy our egos?

Can we save ourselves from this ignominy of ruthlessly ruling 10 million people with one-million armies?  How many guns do we need to rule this population?  And for what?  For the sadistic pleasure that we can beat our enemy in Pakistan? So that we teach a humiliating lesson to the new generation of Kashmiri Muslims for what their fathers did to Kashmiri Hindus? Is this all for holding onto a map?

Either it is Telangana or Kashmir, the problem is the same.  Indians don’t want to admit that someone is ready to get separated from us.  We are not ready to concede that we might have done something wrong, that we have deprived the people of their aspirations, their access to opportunities, curtailed them of their freedoms.  

‘How can someone accuse us of suppressing someone’s freedoms when we are the freest of the nations?’ our arrogance asks. Take a look around you.  We suppress our own people all the time.  Andhras suppress Telanganas.  Hindus suppress Muslims.  Upper castes suppress Lower castes.  Men suppress Women.  When given a free rein, the majorities and the privileged suppress minorities and the underprivileged. The strong suppresses the weak.

Today we are suppressing peoples’ freedoms with guns and tanks, forcing them to stay in their homes depriving them of basic freedoms to go out.  We are so high on our growing economic and military power that we are not ready to concede an inch of our land even if it means killing everyone who aspires for it.  Under the name of imposition of peace we have become the very masters we toppled.  We have become the British. We have become the dictators and usurpers. 

Let go

History tells us that no map is static.  They are constantly redrawn.  Countries emerge, divide, unite and evolve. 

The solution to washing our sins is ‘letting go’.  Let go of Kashmiris.  Let them decide their fates.  We may think that they are not in the right mind when they seek separation.  But it is better for them decide their fates than imposing our sense of right it onto them.   It should not be our prerogative to decide what is good for them especially when we have to hold a gun against their head to make them say ‘yes’. 

Let go, India.  Become mature.  Some of us expect that from you.  We expect India to be so confident that our pride and ego will not be hurt just because we admit ‘we could not coerce you into loving us’.  We want our India to be preoccupied with keepings its ideals intact rather than its maps.  We want India to be a country where people feel they are free not because they are forced into admitting it but because they genuinely feel free to express their opinion however disagreeable it is to the rest of us. 

Can we set aside our political agendas, our egos, our prides and our sanctities aside for a while and ask, how does it change our opinion of India if we actually took a step forward and told these 10 million people that we are ready to let them go.  Will that not increase our stature in our own eyes? Will it not give us pride as a nation that we have become mature enough to let someone go after realizing that all this while we were suffocating them and forcing them to live with us? 

[Source for Picture: THE HINDU]

63 comments:

  1. Proud Indian? What nonsense man.
    This falls neatly into the idea of just letting go of a part of the country that wants to be on its own. Let the portion become its own entity. Today Kashmir, tomorrow Telangana? Bravo.

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  2. It is sheer ignorance.Every region demands its own country and want to go out of India. You don't care for India.But we are Indians ,we care.Your blog is seditious.How can compare Kashmir with Telangana ? If you don't have regard for India and its map then you don't deserve to be an Indian. Talk to poor Pakistanis you will know what their lifestyle is and India is .Talk to any CEO in any American or European country they will tell you how respectful they are towards India and its ideals.You must realize the its the people who laid their lives for building Ram Mandir,in 90s there was a people's aspiration to establish a Hindutva country.Do you think the Govt should have yielded to them? In the same 90s there were younsters who committed self-immolations for scrapping Mandal Commission recommendations,were their last wishes fulfilled? There was a violent movement in Tamil Nadu for Dravidistan do you mean to say the govt should have conceded? What about Khalistan and North East uprisings should govt have considered them and part with our territory? What about Naxalism? There was an overwhelming support for them in 80s and 90s from common people,should the govt have considered them? People's aspirations should be in consonance with that of the nation's.You are probably a coward to cow down to anti-democratic movements but I'm sure my country is not.It will deal with any eventuality,there might be glitches committed by politicians but India has a whole is perfect executer of its will.

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  3. Its time to let go Kashmir. You cannot coerce someone to stay with you if they do no want to. Only hindutva haters fail to see sense in a separate Kashmir. Hindutva is a minority caste Hindu reaction to Mandal. Dalits, Backward castes, Tribals and other progressive Indians have no tolerance for Hindutva thugs. Let go Telangana too. Only ones who oppose Telangana are the feudal thugs from Andhra belonging to a couple of castes. - An Andhraite

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  4. Do Telanganites want to fight for a state within India or separation from India? Or is fighting for the state a first step in its fight for a separate nation? How can you say 'we Indians" when you are openly advocating that voices must be heard?
    India is united and is worth fighting for even if it means sacrificing everything. Your blog is an affront to the our brave soldiers who fought valiant wars sacrificing their lives and everything they had as their own.I agree with your contention that the map of any country is not static. It should grow but no way it should shrink.As far as Kashmir is concerned the special status was given much against the wishes of majority Indians.If the special status were to be removed the problem would be solved on its own momentum.

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  5. Anonymous:

    Do Telanganites want to fight for a state within India or separation from India? Or is fighting for the state a first step in its fight for a separate nation?

    Telangana people are fighting for a state within India. Telangana people believe that their aspirations will be met within the confines of Indian Constitution and are actually fighting for a legitimate demand to implement Article 3 of the Constitution. In fact, when they protest they proudly wave the Indian flag. They are not fighting for a separate nation.

    India is united and is worth fighting for even if it means sacrificing everything.

    Some of us do not believe it is worth fighting for when the people belonging to it have to be killed, suppressed, humiliated and put in check with a million-soldiers army.

    Your blog is an affront to the our brave soldiers who fought valiant wars sacrificing their lives and everything they had as their own.

    Our brave soldiers fight wars that we impose onto them. We hope to impose only those wars which have valid causes. Sometimes causes lose validity. And that’s when we have to roll back.

    A million British people died in India trying to keep India a part of British Empire. Many of them were soldiers who died in wars trying to build Indian Empire. And yet, one fine day, all of them left to leave India for Indians. Just because so many British have sacrificed their lives for building India does not mean they have to continue ruling us forever.

    I agree with your contention that the map of any country is not static. It should grow but no way it should shrink.

    If it grows for someone does it not shrink for someone else? If every nation kept on increasing their maps, wouldn’t we get into another world war?

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  6. Anonymous:

    Every region demands its own country and want to go out of India.

    It’s a common misconception amongst Indians that all regions want to secede. In reality majority of the states do not want to secede from India. They see more benefits being part of India than being a separate nation. India is united not because we force every region into submission using force, but because they like to be part of India.

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  7. Sujai:

    Your suggestion sounds just and good, but in reality it is not workable. Rest assured, if we take steps to give up Kashmir, there will be huge violence and riots throughout the country, by Hindutva-vaadis, asking for a Hindu nation and a second partition. People from all walks of life will support the Hindutva-vaadis this time.

    And the rights of minority Hindus and Buddhists in Kashmir need to be protected too. The track record of the Kashmiris of pushing out minorities will not inspire confidence, and there will be outright demands for a second partition and exchange of populations.

    My point is that there are reasons beyong wanting to 'stick on to a map'. A pragmatic leadership has to look at all aspects of the problem, and its ramifications.

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  8. "It’s a common misconception amongst Indians that all regions want to secede. In reality majority of the states do not want to secede from India. They see more benefits being part of India than being a separate nation. India is united not because we force every region into submission using force, but because they like to be part of India."
    Back to just after India got its independence every kid going to school knows how many princely state existed,most of them including Hyderabad,Junagarh and minuscule state called Banganapalle
    wanted to remain independent.There were street fighting in Hyderabad and subsequent firings for Azad Hyderabad.I need not mention why Sardar Patel was called Iron Man of India.The present Tamil Nadu,Punjab(Himachal,Haryana,Rajasthan) entire North east states,Punjab,Darjeeling, Dandakaranya you name it wanted to secede from India.Succession was equated with treason by Constitutional amendment.You must have lost touch with history(I'm sure you are tied up with other things) .AS a patriotic Indian living away from home I look at the map of my country everyday and night,I don't know how proud I'm just looking at it.

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  9. "Our brave soldiers fight wars that we impose onto them. We hope to impose only those wars which have valid causes. Sometimes causes lose validity. And that’s when we have to roll back.

    A million British people died in India trying to keep India a part of British Empire. Many of them were soldiers who died in wars trying to build Indian Empire. And yet, one fine day, all of them left to leave India for Indians. Just because so many British have sacrificed their lives for building India does not mean they have to continue ruling us forever. "

    I'm sorry at your understanding of military,it is outrageous and puerile .Its not just money and orders my dear friend that drives soldiers to the battlefield.They are the ultimate sacrificers who give up their life and lifestyle so that people like you and me can blog.Give your servant or any of your friend 1 Crore and ask him to sacrifice his life,would he?I'm ashamed that a fellow blogger has not bothered to honor the patriotism and the pride and suffering discharging their duties and repose the faith in men and women protecting you and your kids from enemies. I don't think anybody from any country would stoop down to the level you have.In the US tell anybody that you have a relative serving in the military you will receive the hospitality of your lifetime. I've many collegues and friends who have sacrificed the leg and limb ,practically their live and lifestyle defending you and me.Criticizing the brave men and women doesn't make you an ultra leftist and modern.I'm sorry.
    Another point about British Indian Army.Who told you millions of British people died in India defending it.Where are you?British Indian Army consisted only of Indian and was commanded by handful of British officers.Poor Indian soldiers dropped off like flies in European and Asian theaters. Indians died by thousands defending their stupid masters even when they didn't have any enmity with the countries they fought against. A simple google search will reveal it.You seemed misguided and in a bid to buttress your faulty premised you are trying to drag history on to your wrong side.

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  10. All patriots..I agree kashmir can be part of india on the basis of...
    "It belonged to hindus ..our kings ruled it..later on muslims occupied it..hence it is still in india"

    but what about north east and andaman ,they are literally melecchas ,what right do we have on the north east and andamanese...?

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  11. @ Sujai

    Nice tought provoking entry and I agree with most of what u said. History tells us Pakistan and other foreign infiltartion did happen (for that mastter is happening) but the present plight where our armed forces consider every Kashmiri as a terrorist is what has caused this predicament.And I condemn it.

    Letting Kashmir go will definitely bring noting less than a Civil War situation in the India. The poilitical party under which its happening will definitely not come to power the next time. Basing on the comments of most for this entry its easy to tell that a vast majority do not believe in letting Kashmir go.

    I personally am undecided on this letting go. Enough has been seen for the past 60 years with no developments. If the government truely wants it can make the situation right and i badly wish it does.

    Concerned and Confused..

    Anand

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  12. @ scripthost

    I cant say abt the NortEast but being from PortBlair(Andaman) we have no issues and consider ourselved very much Indians. As a matter of fact its a mini India there for people of different religion and language have been living their peacefully.

    Anand

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  13. @ Anand:

    Letting Kashmir go will definitely bring noting less than a Civil War situation in the India.

    I wouldn’t bet on it. We can easily manage this provided we do it right. Taking few steps in that direction itself will bring in change in our mindsets. For example, as a first step, if Center divides this state into three regions, Jammu, Kashmir Valley and Ladakh, it will become clear to most Indians that Kashmir valley comprises a very small part of the state.

    And that first step alone could pave for future steps either way – either that Kashmiris feel a part of India or want to be separated from India. Right now, people of Jammu who happen to Hindus are dead against any separation of the state along three regions.

    Basing on the comments of most for this entry its easy to tell that a vast majority do not believe in letting Kashmir go.

    If we go by that, we know that majority of Indians may not want to allow the creation of Telangana. And yet, we have to take some bold steps keeping in view that people of that region have a different aspirations. Opinion of the majority cannot be imposed in such cases.

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  14. Anonymous:

    You should leave a name. It helps.

    It’s not just money and orders my dear friend that drives soldiers to the battlefield. They are the ultimate sacrificers who give up their life and lifestyle so that people like you and me can blog.

    I thank our Indian soldiers for doing their duty which protects me from alien invaders. However, to assume that what soldiers do is always right is being naïve. Soldiers can defenders or the aggressors depending on what is asked of them.

    For example, American soldiers are used for aggression in many cases. For example, they have landed up in Vietnam and ended up killing many innocent people. To assume that they are ‘ultimate sacrificers’ is like children believing in tooth fairy.

    Also, Indian soldiers fought many wars for many kings and alien empires. For example, millions of Indian soldiers took part in World War I and World War II campaigns fighting on behalf of Britain. Those wars had nothing to do with India.

    Also, they fought in Afghanistan campaigns during British rule and that also had nothing to do with Indians or India. It clearly shows that soldiers do their duty when called upon. And the cause could be justified or unjustified.

    Give your servant or any of your friend 1 Crore and ask him to sacrifice his life,would he?

    Why don’t you ask yourself the question why Kashmiri youth are sacrificing their lives? Are they receiving 1 Crore?

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  15. Anonymous:

    AS a patriotic Indian living away from home I look at the map of my country everyday and night,I don't know how proud I'm just looking at it.

    Therein lies the difference between the two of us. You have a nostalgic idea of India while I am living through it. While you are fond of maps, I am fond of the ideals that India stands for. You feel proud looking at Indian map. I feel proud when India does something right and just.

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  16. "I don't think anybody from any country would stoop down to the level you have.In the US tell anybody that you have a relative serving in the military you will receive the hospitality of your lifetime"

    Utter bullshit. Visit the Iraq/Afghanistan war discussion forums on the net visited by Americans (you try some discussions on slashdot.org) and you can see how divided and ambiguous the opinion among Americans is with regard to their soldiers. Just try it - search out some forums and spend some time reading the comments.

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  17. "The rights by which I want to lead my life, I want them to be applied unversally across all my country men."

    Let Go, India! +1

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  18. Seriously!
    You got to be kidding me!

    If tomorrow, someone comes in to a part of the country - say Assam, introduces more of their country ppl into that place, and they want to separate - you (I am sure) would say sure.

    Well, sorry this has been my first comment ever without reading the whole blog, but well..can't..

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  19. @ANAND SAID
    @@I cant say abt the NortEast but being from PortBlair(Andaman) we have no issues and consider ourselved very much Indians. As a matter of fact its a mini India there for people of different religion and language have been living their peacefully.

    You people live peacefully while silently exterminating the native aboriginal populations like Jarawa, taking away their land,forests,government sponsersed forced rehabilitaion camps that are efficent at killing than austwiz.So much for living "peacefully"

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  20. concerned citizenAugust 07, 2010 12:41 AM

    90% of the indians dont even know the proper map of india.They think even POK,and akasi chin are within india cause patriotism for them means cheering india in a cricket matcrh against pakistan. They dont think of patriotism when they spit,throw thrash on the road or jump a traffic signal.They never voluntarily wait in a queue.Im your proper indian(hindu,high caste,above middle class).I see no problem in giving autonomy to kashmiris. So far i didnt see no kashmiri suicide bombers blowing up buses full of people in Delhi like they did in Israel. But frightenigly the images of boys pelting stones at armoured gypsees,police firing tear gas shells remind me of palestine and that of intifada.Hope this generation have kashmiris dont have to go through what their parents went through.

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  21. not too proud indianAugust 07, 2010 12:56 AM

    I feel sorry for these CRPF people most of them are from poor parts of Bihar and UP. India makes its poorest people to shootup the opressed people from kashmir,dankaranya,telengana.
    The common thing among them is that they didnt get to eat the fruits of Indian democracy.

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  22. It’s a common misconception amongst Indians that all regions want to secede. In reality majority of the states do not want to secede from India. They see more benefits being part of India than being a separate nation. India is united not because we force every region into submission using force, but because they like to be part of India.

    Sujai,
    Congratulations for getting the information on whether the states think to be within India or getting seperated from it.

    I wonder where you get your information from!!By reading all the daily newspapers, watching television or you might be an angel travelling in the sky all part of India from north to south, and from east to west.You should have got a very good eye where you see each and every incident with the two you got when you were born and with the other two you got while growing up.

    Kudos to you on getting such authentic information and deciding the fates of over a billion population over 3 years. One no need to go and do surveys to get information.If any one who wish to bring a change to this country visit your blog they will not only find problems but also the solutions they are looking for.

    Death is the same when it happens to any human. Any lower caste(according to indian caste system) person's death is not equivalent to deaths of 10 Upper caste people. So it would be better when you know and write about one side of the coin to also see the other side of teh coin and write about them. I am not here to advice you to do it coz people only listen to themselves and not to others. I would rather see some life in your writings when there is a contrast between both sides of the coin rather than being completely beleiving in what ever you think is true.

    Thats the same attitude many people possess in common that what ever they think is true, so its not easy for everyone to think coming out of the box.As a result it becomes difficult for a theist to make him not to beleive in GOD and for an atheist to make him believe in GOD and the examples go on.

    You had various writeups on your blog over various aspects.I think you have touched each and every problem prevailing in this country and came up with some solutions or conclusions which you think are right. Inspite of all these are you ready to accept that out of all which you wrote there might be atleast a few in which you might have gone wrong??? If you answer is YES thats fair enough..coz everyone needs to have a mind of acceptance of failure and acceptance of mistakes.

    I changed my complete stance on what i used to be by reading your blog on reservations. one sentence which made a huge impact on eme was "Ask the person who suffered or experienced, but not the person who didn't". In lot of places in your blogs I see the same statement being contradicted by yourself.

    I dont know why I thought writing this.If you dont wnt this post to be displayed you can delete it.

    I am very much fond of reading your blog to get a different version on things what i think. I read cnn-ibn not to beleive what ever he says is true, but to have an idea on what he is saying might be true.

    Thank you for sparing your time.Have a nice day :). Keep blogging

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  23. The suggestion to let go of Kashmir is reaonable if Kashmir valley alone is made into a truely autonomous state, even something like Bhutan, with India guranteeing its borders and external affairs while keeping Jammu and Ladakh as part of India.

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  24. I do not give any sanctity to the idea of partition of India on religion lines. Unfortunately, partition happened, resulting in great bloodshed, many people got killed and millions displaced. Many people migrated against their will leaving all their properties. Likewise, many people were left in their territory due to their limited means or conditions, even though they wanted to migrate to the other country. India and Pakistan assumed control of the whole of British India and all the princely states were annexed into either of these two newly formed nations. The events around the time of partition were brutal for many Indians. At the same time, many events took place in Kashmir, Pakistan occupied some of the territory of Kashmir and India got control of the remaining area. Sure, the Kashmiri population was brutally divided by the two nations, but the same happened to Bengalis, Punjabis etc.

    British India was divided into secular India and Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Our fledgling nation was tormented by many internal conflicts, but we did a decent job of maintaining sovereignty and territorial integrity. We are committed to line of control and I think it is fair and the most practical thing to do. There were always Kashmiri dissidents, who wanted a separate, independent Kashmir. But India was able maintain relative peace until late 80s. But when Islamic extremism with the support of Pakistan was added to the mix, the situation went out of control.

    Giving away Kashmir goes antithetical to the very idea of India. People of all ethnic, linguistic, religious persuasions reconciled with the idea of India. What makes Kashmiris exclusive? They are free to elect their representatives, free to travel anywhere, have access to education and basic rights like every other Indian. Why should we consider to carve a separate nation for them now, just because they are muslim? Kashmiri muslims also have to bear the brunt of the events that transpired during partition of India.

    Sure they have grievances. The presence of vast army is a big concern and we should have done better in improving police and surveillance. But we are a new and developing country with limited resources. Also, we should repeal Article 370 which makes Kashmir exclusive. Provisions like these might help in the short term, but in the long run only increase wedge among populations.

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  25. @Manohar
    Thanks for that insightful comment. I have a lot to agree with what you said.

    I am thinking of how America(USA)handled an ethnic/political problem like this. I am told there are hundreds of native Indian nations within the land that constitutes present day USA. Those who know more about it can enlighten us further. May be
    Sujai should blog about it in detail. Americans are known for their political savy. The white man has been at the helm of world affairs for the last few centuries. They have all the power they need to do anything they want, particularly within their land mass, but they deferred to the wishes of the natives and provided them lots of territories where they have a feeling of independence. Historically, the American army was known to frequently shoot unarmed women and children when it comes to native Indians. Finally they realized a political solution is better when the ethnicities and identities do not blend for some reason. I am not saying Kashmir should be given away to anybody. I remember Sujai has explained elsewhere how India unilaterally should carve out an autonomous valley so Valley Kashmiri's aspirations are met. That way India can save resources and have internal peace.

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  26. "The suggestion to let go of Kashmir is reaonable if Kashmir valley alone is made into a truely autonomous state, even something like Bhutan, with India guranteeing its borders and external affairs while keeping Jammu and Ladakh as part of India."
    Why Jammu and Ladakh should be separated from Kashmir? What do you mean by autonomy ? Is JandK not autonomous? Can you buy property there?Can you settle down there? Can you work in the State govt ?

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  27. "Some of us do not believe it is worth fighting for when the people belonging to it have to be killed, suppressed, humiliated and put in check with a million-soldiers army."

    I agree.

    I myself feel suffocated by Indian state. I want to declare my apartment as an independent nation. My four family members support my demand. I am ready to throw stones to get my demand heard.

    Sujai: Please write an article supporting my demand too.

    - chirkut

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  28. Chirkut:

    I myself feel suffocated by Indian state. I want to declare my apartment as an independent nation. My four family members support my demand. I am ready to throw stones to get my demand heard.

    You don’t have to throw stones to be heard. We hereby grant your apartment the status of an independent nation. Here are some of the guidelines:

    1. Since you are completely surrounded on all sides by India, you need a visa from us each time you step out of your home. Please note that you will need to apply 6 months in advance for a visa. And visa will be valid for 3 hours.
    2. You will not be allowed to pass any of your effluents into our country. You have to store up all the effluents in your home forever.
    3. We have decided not to have a bilateral treaty with you to supply power. Please generate your own power. The same applies to other connectivity like telephone/gas/water, etc.

    Thank you.
    Principal Secretary,
    Creating-new-Countries-within-India Committee

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  29. Manohar:

    Giving away Kashmir goes antithetical to the very idea of India. People of all ethnic, linguistic, religious persuasions reconciled with the idea of India. What makes Kashmiris exclusive?

    It depends on how we define India. While many pundits have reasoned the same way as you have done, I disagree with that definition of India. I don’t think a religious identity is antithetical to India. Existence of a religious country or its creation does not negate the identity of India. It only means that different people have different choices.

    People of ‘many’ ethnic, linguistic and religious identities have accepted the idea of India, but that does not mean ‘all’ of them have reconciled to the idea of India. And there is no necessity that everyone should reconcile to that idea. And it does not make sense to coerce them into submitting to that idea.

    What makes Kashmiris exclusive? They are free to elect their representatives, free to travel anywhere, have access to education and basic rights like every other Indian.

    India elected representatives, were free to travel anywhere and had access to education in British ruled India, and yet we were not completely happy with it. What was good for British, which included Scots, Irish, Welsh and English was just not good enough for Indians.

    We may believe that Kashmir had all the basic rights, but Kashmiris don’t believe that. I wouldn’t believe it too if my elected government were dismissed, my cities overrun by armies, my complaints unregistered, my basic right to step out of my home revoked. Kashmiris are not treated by India the same way the rest of us are.

    Sure they have grievances. The presence of vast army is a big concern and we should have done better in improving police and surveillance. But we are a new and developing country with limited resources.

    That’s not a good enough excuse for a generation of Kashmiris who had lost basic privilege to a decent living, who had lost education, access to opportunity, are being ruled with suspicion, taken up into custody on hunches, sisters raped, and uncles killed.

    How could this country give freedoms to people in Karnataka but not Kashmir? Isn’t India poor in Karnataka? How can it run those massive armies spending crores of rupees per day if it was indeed poor? Somehow your excuse is not convincing.

    Why should we consider to carve a separate nation for them now, just because they are muslim? Kashmiri muslims also have to bear the brunt of the events that transpired during partition of India.

    India has many identities, some religious, some linguistic, some casteist, some regional. India has come up with various methods to deal with them and accommodate their aspirations. However, it has not done a good job on all of them. For example, it consistently failed on Telangana people. We cannot assume we have been perfect.

    If we were to go and finish the unfinished business of Partition, then an argument can be made that Kashmir shouldn’t have come to India in the first place and therefore India has a duty to return it. Either way carving a new state is not antithetical to the idea of India.

    Because India was not formed on the premise that it is static, that its map is frozen in time, that it could be a home to all identities on the planet.

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  30. Manohar:

    Giving away Kashmir goes antithetical to the very idea of India. People of all ethnic, linguistic, religious persuasions reconciled with the idea of India. What makes Kashmiris exclusive?

    It depends on how we define India. While many pundits have reasoned the same way as you have done, I disagree with that definition of India. I don’t think a religious identity is antithetical to India. Existence of a religious country or its creation does not negate the identity of India. It only means that different people have different choices.

    People of ‘many’ ethnic, linguistic and religious identities have accepted the idea of India, but that does not mean ‘all’ of them have reconciled to the idea of India. And there is no necessity that everyone should reconcile to that idea. And it does not make sense to coerce them into submitting to that idea.

    What makes Kashmiris exclusive? They are free to elect their representatives, free to travel anywhere, have access to education and basic rights like every other Indian.

    India elected representatives, were free to travel anywhere and had access to education in British ruled India, and yet we were not completely happy with it. What was good for British, which included Scots, Irish, Welsh and English was just not good enough for Indians.

    We may believe that Kashmir had all the basic rights, but Kashmiris don’t believe that. I wouldn’t believe it too if my elected government were dismissed, my cities overrun by armies, my complaints unregistered, my basic right to step out of my home revoked. Kashmiris are not treated by India the same way the rest of us are.

    [Contd...]

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  31. Manohar:

    [Continued from previous comment]

    Sure they have grievances. The presence of vast army is a big concern and we should have done better in improving police and surveillance. But we are a new and developing country with limited resources.

    That’s not a good enough excuse for a generation of Kashmiris who had lost basic privilege to a decent living, who had lost education, access to opportunity, are being ruled with suspicion, taken up into custody on hunches, sisters raped, and uncles killed.

    How could this country give freedoms to people in Karnataka but not Kashmir? Isn’t India poor in Karnataka? How can it run those massive armies spending crores of rupees per day if it was indeed poor? Somehow your excuse is not convincing.

    Why should we consider to carve a separate nation for them now, just because they are muslim? Kashmiri muslims also have to bear the brunt of the events that transpired during partition of India.

    India has many identities, some religious, some linguistic, some casteist, some regional. India has come up with various methods to deal with them and accommodate their aspirations. However, it has not done a good job on all of them. For example, it consistently failed on Telangana people. We cannot assume we have been perfect.

    If we were to go and finish the unfinished business of Partition, then an argument can be made that Kashmir shouldn’t have come to India in the first place and therefore India has a duty to return it. Either way carving a new state is not antithetical to the idea of India.

    Because India was not formed on the premise that it is static, that its map is frozen in time, that it could be a home to all identities on the planet.

    ReplyDelete
  32. can understand the greviances of kashmiris i felt like im under housearrest when telengana agitation was going with all the curfews and section144.Imagine kashmiris are facin the situation everyday for the past 50 years think about that.

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  33. Like you always said....talk to the one who suffered - the Kashmiri pandits.

    Tomorrow, the NE will say they want a separate country because they are christian !!

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  34. This is precisely anti-Indian(separatist) behavior/thinking.
    Anti social elements(religious/ separatist/naxal) target and influence those young kids either in kashmir valley or in Osmania university.

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  35. "Why don’t you ask yourself the question why Kashmiri youth are sacrificing their lives? Are they receiving 1 Crore?"

    Because Trans-border terrorism come with a huge cost.For sake of arguement 1 crore,but the going international standards that is high.For sake of money the terrorists are entering into India.Many Kashmiri youth fell in that trap.

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  36. @ Annonymous

    [Please identify yourself. Its much easier to respond]

    Well as much as i am surprized that you know what the Jarawas i have to say i dont disagree with what u have said. Yes the aborigines have suffered because of our settlement. When i said "living peacefully" i wasnt talking abt that. Much of the damage was done way before our settlement started pre independence. I regret those things happened to them.

    The government is doing doing their part rather generously. Wherelse will you find tribal quota for MMBS seats worth 20-30 lakhs for 50% CBSE marks??

    All the same thess lot more to be done on matters of primary education, empowerment of women etc... But thats a different topic altogather isnt it? I was talking abt peace withing the multi lingual,urban, non tribal population that now constitues the majority there.

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  37. Think it from a kashmiri teenagers prespective, from the time he wakes up he will be frisked by the police atleast a couple of times by the time he makes it to nearest chai stall he will be seein atleast a couple of checkpoints,only bsnl mobile services are allowed what our youth take for granted(sms) is a luxury for them constantly banned by the state, they cant have any "night life" as the valley is forcibly shutdown at night,they are made to carry identity cards at all time and punished if not doin so,curfews are common than rainfall for them and they cant just hav a funday at home bunking school because the cut off all television channels,they cant roam in gangs as most of us do if they dare to they wil be probably beaten up,and they hav to endure a mini-hindu invasion each year as thousand of pilligrims discend to amarnath caves and claim their right to relegion as the local people are subjected to security restrictions and we indians expect them to proudly sing vandemataram.

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  38. I think the cost(monetary,ethical,strategic) of keeping kashmir are too much.
    COST: India already spends 1,47,344 cr rupees or 32 billion $,that more than 15% of the entire budget.I dunno the numbers but i think india deploys atleast a half a mil soldiers in kashmir out a total number of 37 lakh armed forces.
    If we give up kashmir i think we can save close to 10 billion US $ each year not counting the funds given by the central govt to the state.
    Ethical cost:
    Pakistan raises the issue of human right violations and uses it as a bargaining chip in interanational arena,if we give up kashmir they dont hav nothing to play on and we will have a moral highground to question other countrys activities like chinas tibet or srilanka about human right violations.

    Security and strategic cost:
    If pakistans also gives up its POK and a independant kashmir is formed.The new country will serve as a buffer between unstable pakistan and india, and we could use international treaties to perevent kashmir from harbouring any pak forces and if any attacks are launched from kashmir's soil we can retaliate using punitative military strikes(like turkey does on kurdistan).
    Finally ISI would loose fuel to divert its jihadi groups anger at India and instead turn them against the "infidel" supporting pakistan itself.

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  39. sujai sorry for using ur blog as mine

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  40. I think the situation now kashmir is smilar to that in telengana some of the common feautres:
    *protests are spontaneous.
    *most of the protesters are in their teens.
    Acutually geelani had drawn up a calender for protests i.e some days for engaing in protests other days a break for restocking supplies for common people so that they dont hav to face hardships.But the protests have gone out of hand and there were protests even on the supposedly "break days".
    Now the indian government has a window of oppurtunity before the pakistani based groups can take control of the situation,it can only be pre-empted by granting concessions like granting alteast some autonomy to kashmirs but india has to act fast before pakistan takes control of the local kashmri independance groups which are mostly of secular nature. There was a incident not reported in mainstream media : The ISI supported primeminster of Pak occupied kashmir has issued a statement urging the protesters to observe restraint so that to hav gaps between protests, he was immediately chastised by the protestors and his effigies were burnt and he had to retract his statement.This new generation of protestors are more radicalised than their fathers and they are angry at the "failed promise" of pakistan to support the armed uprsing against the indian state.Pakistan may not be naive enough to fail them this time.Pakistan operates on the principle of Sponsoring militancy in Kashmir is regarded as a relatively cheap and effective way of offsetting existing power symmetries (essentially through the philosophy of a 'war of a thousand cuts') pakistan only spends like 150-200 million us dollars each year sponsoring insurgent groups unlike 10 billion dollars of Indias expenditure in kashmir.It has a double benefit for them as it directs the energies of jihadi groups towards kashmir ,instead of their objective of a islamic revolution in Pakistan itself.Pakistan will be placed in a very akward situation if india grants autonomy to kashmir as they are not ready to give autonomy to POK itself.Even the mighty soviet union was defeated by the mujahidin having popular support.we dont want the jihad to spill over into India and fullfil the prophecy of Ghazwa-e-Hind.

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  41. Nothing but a simple IndianAugust 12, 2010 3:59 PM

    I FEEL YOU ARE NOT INDIAN OR YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA OR ITS INTERESTS. HAVE YOU SOLD YOURSELF ? ARE YOU AN AGENT OF ISI OR CIA OR YOU ARE SIMPLY A LUNATIC PERSON?
    SHAME ON THOSE PARENTS WHO GAVE BIRTH TO TRAITOR.
    (JANANI JANMBHUMISCH SWARGADIAPI GARIASI.)
    WHEN MORE THAN MILLIONS OF MILITARY AND CIVILIAN PERSONNEL ARE FIGHTING WITH SEPARATISTS, ALL OF US SHOULD ENCOURAGE THEM AND PRAY FOR NORMALCY.BUT YOU ARE JUST PUTTING FUEL TO FIRE. DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ANY VISIONARY OR MESSIAH OR SOME KIND OF GREAT PERSONALITY OR YOU ARE DESPERATE TO BECOME SOMEDAY. FORGET THIS DAY DREAM. TELL US YOUR ADDRESS, THE VERY NEXT MOMENT YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN HELL. DON'T WORRY I AM JUST CREATING A PICTURE WHICH YOU MIGHT HAVE TO FACE.
    KASHMIR , TELANGANA OR NAGALAND OR ANY OTHER STATE OR REGION OF INDIA IS A INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA. INDIA IS NOTHING WITHOUT THEM AND THOSE REGIONS ARE NOTHING WITHOUT INDIA.MIND IT. ACCEPT MY SUGGESTION, GO TO ANY GOOD PSYCHIATRIST AND ASK FOR YOUR DIAGNOSIS. BELIEVE ME YOU NEED IT.

    IT SEEMS YOU ARE UNEMPLOYED AND HAVE GONE MAD .

    STOP THIS RUBBISH AND DELETE THIS BLOG, OTHERWISE I WILL COMPLAINT TO THE CONCERNED DEPARTMENT.

    JAI HIND.JAI BHARAT

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  42. Nothing but a simple IndianAugust 12, 2010 4:06 PM

    sorry mr. traitor i have informed indian security officials about your blog.now wait for getting inside a good and well protected prison.

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  43. OMG! Run Sujai, Run....
    Run away from these SIMPLE INDIANS !!
    Come on Man! What are you laughing at? You gotta run!!

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  44. Are you out of your mind? You already made a mistake by saying "let go" kashmir. You made a bigger mistake by comparing that to "Telangana". It's not India who's supposed to be matured. It is you who should get to it first. Kashmir is not a political implication, it is related with India's security and strategic concerns. We already surroundered by enemies on two sides. You want them to be convering the other side too. Even if kashmir is granted the so called "Freedom" the problems won't vanish. Kashmir will still be terrorised, it will be a new haven for the terrorits who will barge into it from Pakistan. And the US will certainly follow them into Kashmir. What hasn't India done to protect kashmiris. They have an autonomous constitution, stopped non-kashmiris from settling in the Valley. Moreover the kashmiri pandits have been driven away from their homes by so called "Freedom Fighters". If that is because they are Hindus, whats with the muslims living in the Valley, shouldn't they be driven by the 90 crore Hindus of India. The central government spends most of it's funds on Kashmir more than any other state. Which country can do that except India. Isn't India mature now? Don't rationalize your thinking by stating a meaningless stance. Kiddo you need to "Grow Up". Telanganites don't want a separate country, they just want a separate identity within India, learn this fact before you talk of struggles.

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  45. @SIMPLE INDIAN

    Feel free to think im a traitor or an ISI agent it amuses me.You made some personal comments about me and i will respond because not becasue im offended but right now im "unemployed" with lot of free time and im not looking forward to employment soon. Dude if u are so patriotic spend some time knowing about the topic,reading from open sources like wikipedia,RAND,theAFpakblog will certainly help.
    Patriotic idiots like u applauded when the country exploded nukes resulting in pakistan going nuclear.Now India doesnt have balls to attack pak after these repeated terrorist attacks on Indian soil because they fear a full scale conventional attack will result in nuclear war.U may want to read about Mutually Assured Destruction and the stability-instability paradox that Pak is now exploiting.Pakistan would love to have more paranoid Indian patriotic zealots like u.

    And finally u dont hav to sweat about informing abt this blog to Indian authorities actually i found a link to this blog from a pro azadi kashmir blog so they may be already monitoring it and that makes it more exiting.
    and forgot: JAI HIND.

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  46. And im feeling little more patriotic to night because i just got supplies this evening from a military canteen in secunderabad with huge discounts.

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  47. Hi Sujai,

    Thats a highly intriguing solution you suggested for the Kashmir issue. Like you youself say, your opinions really do not bring any change..that is, we are just discussing possibilities here.

    I have another chain of thought arising from this - you say that if your solution is implemented and Kashmir becomes an independent entity, the state's problems would be solved. Lets assume that is true. That would most likely make all the terrorists concentrated there jobless - no military to fight with. (I am not saying that our army should be present to keep them employed - its just a very harsh reality). And please dont say they are fighting for a cause and that would be fulfilled and they would automatically revert to a 'normal' life. Thats not very likely.
    So, the point here is, they would most probably turn to other areas, maybe around Wagha or Kutch - needless to say, with the help of our honorary (ref. 'honor' kiilings) neighbour. Then Punjab and Rajasthan, even Gujarat would become the new Kashmir, what then?

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  48. COMMENT ABOUT YOUR TAGLINE.
    "....People live as ever - spitting, throwing garbage, cheating, bribing, but leading a moral life - not smoking, not eating meat, not visiting a prostitute.".

    haha..sarcasm at its height...
    But instead of having "not visiting a prostitute", "staying virgin until marriage" would be much better i believe..
    GS

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  49. Another 15 august. Wish India burns. Only then she can rise like a Phoenix. Like US did after Civil War.

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  50. Did the majority kashmir muslims care about the minority Hindu pandits ? They are the only people in India who actually kicked out people from their homeland. They lost all moral right to ask for independence when they kicked out pandits from valley

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  51. we care more about land than people.

    just one question. if the stone throwers said, we will leave India, we don't want kashmir, how many Indians will feel sad or care.

    but on the other hand, what if tommorrow gujarat says ok lets drive out more muslims and become a hindu state, will that be acceptable and right aspiration.

    its not easy to solve these problems, but its easier to keep the ego down and think of people as humans.

    suppression leads to seperation
    look at what ussr did to keep ukranie and other such countries under its control and what it achieved.

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  52. I dont know why there is so much discussion about this topic. India will not give away Kashmir. Why ? If your enemy threatens you do you give him your wife to buy his affection ? Some Indians - people like Sujai - would and gladly at that. These are the same people who want India to give up Kashmir.

    in 1860, the whole of Southern America wanted freedom. Did Lincoln give in ? No. He fought a war which saw 700,000 people killed to save America as a nation. What is Kashmir in comparison ? Nothing. Just 4-5 million people. Can they fight 1.2 billion people ? What are we afraid of ?

    We are a nation of 1.2 billion people, a $1.5 trillion economy growing at 8% a year and with nukes and a 1.5 million strong army. What are we afraid of ? Stones thrown by some Kashmiri idiots ? Big deal. India has seen far worse in its history. Punjab was a more severe problem than Kashmir. India can easily deal with Kashmir. Has done so for the last 20 years.

    I have nothing but the utmost contempt for those Indians who want India to give up Kashmir.

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  53. Sujai..
    By drawing parallel between Kashmir and Telangana and advocating Kashmir independence, you are betraying the lofty ideals you claim to be proud of as an Indian.
    Kashmir issue is a spill over from Pakistan, unable to manage and control its affairs. Kashmir is more than a piece of land. It is a symbol of Indian identity. It is NO more different than Bangalore or Kolkata. We already have more than 'special' status of Kashmir for Kashmiris. People, who are fighting, have driven Kashmiri Pandits away and are trying to establish an Islamic state within and besides India, with the aim of destabilizing India. We will not allow it in our backyard.

    Stop treating Kashmir with kid gloves. It is an administrative problem where a weak and inept state govt is unable to grapple with a situation and extremists are taking advantage of leadership vacuum.

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  54. Dissolve J&K Govt. Let Army handle it for an year, clandestinely split Pakistan, your root problem will be resolved.

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  55. Taken from a long comment made on one of the Kashmiri forums on Face Book:

    Jammu & Kashmir is not a state where only Kashmiri Muslims live. It is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state with 64% Muslims, 33% Hindus, and 3% Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians and others. There are three distinct geographical regions – Ladakh (with 58% of the area, and 3% of the population), Jammu (26% area, 45% population) and Kashmir (16% area, 52% population: of which over 90 % of the region's minorities, i.e. 3% of the state's total population have been driven out).

    Fifteen per cent of the state's Muslims live in the provinces of Jammu and Ladakh . They are non-Kashmiris, and by and large, they stand behind J&K's association with India. (There are a few small exceptions in some towns of Doda district).

    Of the state's 49% who reside in the Kashmir province, about 13% are Shia Muslims. Shia Muslims so far do not wish to have anything to do with Sunni-dominated Pakistan, knowing full well the fate that awaits them there amongst other issues. This is especially true of the Shias of Kargil who know of the poverty and degradation experienced by their ethnic siblings in Baltistan, a part of Pakistan occupied Kashmir referred to as the "Northern Areas".



    14% of the people in Kashmir province are the pastoral nomadic Gujar and Bakarwal people(These are the people I work with in the State and whose marginalized voices I represent with a lot of pride). They are strong supporters of association with India and have demonstrated this by organizing Militancy Mukhalif Morcha (Anti-Militancy Front) to assist the security forces in surveillance of terrorist activity.



    The support for secession in Jammu & Kashmir is thus largely limited to the non-pastoral Sunni Muslim population of the Kashmir Valley who constitute 22% of the state's population, (or about 1.9 million people). Even amongst them, I am given to understand - by way of several discussion threads even in this group - that not everyone supports the secession movement. Many of our friends here have also confirmed this. Unfortunately, I can't find any concrete 'data' for reference, hence can't determine the percentage - let's call it 'x'.



    So coming back to the (22-x)%, I have noticed that this segment of the population largely dominates the politics of the state. The reason that many believe separatism to be a widespread sentiment in J&K is because this dominant section has succeeded in completely drowning out all other voices in the state, and has the ability to cripple the normal functioning of the society in Kashmir province; either by inaction or insufficient action against Pakistani infiltration and terror or, worst still, by sabotage(by their leaders in the past). It is this section of the state's population that receives all the attention, understandably so, from Pakistan and the imperialist nations, but also from the Indian press as we have all witnessed in the last 3-4 months.

    (The above percentages are all Census figures and cannot by treated as "another Indian conspiracy" theory)

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  56. Another perspective:

    http://www.earlytimes.in/newsdet.aspx?q=58175

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  57. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  58. Sujai,
    Great work. I haven't read it fully; bu I think my half-reading itself has helped me imbibe the mood and crux of it and the multitude of responses it has got.
    I remember someone asking Noam Chomsky after one of his talks, "So what do you suggest should happen in Afghanistan? Who should be given the power?"
    Chomsky replies.."Well..That is a question need to be answered by the people of Afghanistan and not me.."
    Isn't it such a simple idea? Why don't several Indians have problem getting this to their head and minds?
    Let Kashmiris decide what they want. And there need to be no other rule, sentiment, dispute, philosophy or rationale above that !

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  59. Despite certain unwanted rude comments, sujai, I think there is a good discussion going on here.

    Well, even though a knee jerk reaction may be to " let kashmir go" as you say, looking back at history, where India was divided 'to let the muslims go' was probably not such a great move. Two nuclear powers have been created, a lot of money has been spent on defense instead of raising the national income.
    Now, if kashmir becomes an indpendent state surrounded by India, Pak and China, none of these three states would want the other to have an upper hand and "elections" will be based on loyalties to either of these three nations. On the other hand, there wont be any law to stop people from migrating into Kashmir (the kashmiris will have difficulties to enforce this since they will need all the money they can get). Finally a mini Afghanisthan with china playing the role of the former USSR, Pak being its own self and India trying its best to counter china will still need to be on its toes all the time. Pak will do pretty much anything to be one up on india even if it means giving up territory ( the chinese influence in Gilgit Baltistan is on the increase). My respect for the Dogra kings is increasing by the day when I think of what they were up against..

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  60. Revathi:

    Well, even though a knee jerk reaction may be to " let kashmir go"

    I don’t see it as a knee jerk reaction. This is where I stand after twenty years of knowing this issue closely.

    looking back at history, where India was divided 'to let the muslims go' was probably not such a great move.

    We have a big disagreement here. I don’t think it is up to me to let someone go or not. If someone wants to go, I don’t take pleasure or pride in holding onto that person. If I force that other person to stay with me then what is the idea of freedom?

    Two nuclear powers have been created, a lot of money has been spent on defense instead of raising the national income.

    Imagine a world where there is only one country. No wars, no atom bombs. But what kind of that world would that be? To prove others to join, can we join China and let them rule over us because their population exceeds us making them a majority?

    Now, if kashmir becomes an indpendent state surrounded by India, Pak and China, none of these three states would want the other to have an upper hand and "elections" will be based on loyalties to either of these three nations.

    Too many assumptions! Is Bhutan such a big problem for us? Is Sri Lanka such a big problem for us?

    On the other hand, there wont be any law to stop people from migrating into Kashmir (the kashmiris will have difficulties to enforce this since they will need all the money they can get).

    Speculation.

    Is speculation a good enough reason to deny someone freedom?

    My respect for the Dogra kings is increasing by the day when I think of what they were up against..

    Then the respect for Nizam should be 10 times more, and respect for British should 100 times more. ;-)

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  61. I think speculations are important.
    Well, the bosnian war was started after germany decided to support Slovenia unilaterally and we all know what happened after that. The bosnian state is now divided on the basis of relegion for the first time in history.
    Many people in this blog are of the opinion that the whole of kashmir state is not asking for a separate state and if I understand you, you ask for a referendum right away. What if the result turned out to be even messier than now?
    Also, Sri lanka is not the right example- the tamil's demand was met brutally by the army (that the tamils used the wrong methods is obvious). Would it have been better for the tamils to have asked to join Tamil Nadu? As you would say, speculation..
    There is Nepal where external interference from china and india is deciding the local politics.

    Creating nations on the basis of relegion is dangerous as has been proved by israel and pakistan (both aided by unnatural migration). If we create a new kashmir nation which as of now has not proved itself capable of creating a secular state, we havent learned from history.
    Ofcourse you must forgive me for all this speculation but as bloggers we can only speculate and discuss.

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  62. Revathi:

    Many people in this blog are of the opinion that the whole of kashmir state is not asking for a separate state and if I understand you, you ask for a referendum right away. What if the result turned out to be even messier than now?

    Why should a referendum turn messier? Referendum will give us an insight into what the people of Kashmir are actually thinking. If the opinion is divided clearly along geographic lines, then India can take decisions based on those inputs. Why should we be afraid of a referendum? Isn’t that the absolute tool for democracy?

    Creating nations on the basis of relegion is dangerous as has been proved by israel and pakistan (both aided by unnatural migration).

    Who should says they are dangerous. Would the people of Israel go back to being in mainland Europe after what happened to them in WWII? You should ask the people of those countries if they want to remain elsewhere. If they don’t then their existence is justified.

    There are many countries on this planet which are based in religion but yet do not pose threat the way Israel or Pakistan. Why should we take only these two examples to suggest that nations created on basis of religion are dangerous?

    In fact, Israel and Pakistan have other thing in common, not just religion. They were formed by massive exodus. However, Kashmir will not fit that bill.

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  63. you have not answered the basic question
    "Do all the ppl in kashmir want to get seperated from India?? "
    assume if majoiry of telangana doesnt want to seperate and only few areas like karimnagar or kahmmam or medak want a seperate state will u divide the state? from what i have learnt there are only few areas which want to seperated for that u cant simply let go .I agree the moovement is beyond any leader but if u see the same telangana agitation they are more democratic protests.

    I understand the ppl over there are angry and are facing the indian army with just stones only for the cause of freedom....not from indian state but from the rule of army over there.....army being part of their daily lives as if they are in some garrison.I think ppl have India have shown a poor response in shownign the ppl over there they are our brothers and we understand their pain.we should press for removal of army and let their elected reps rule them...u see thats the freedom they want.

    there might be some ppl who want to seperate from India they are entitled to their opinions but I dont think most of them want to get seperated from india..all they want is be ruled by their elected reps rather than the army....I share ur pain for kashiri brothers but I dont want to "let go" because they are angry at us . I want the state to be ruled by the state govt rather than the central govt and then see the option of "LET GO"

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